How To Teach Drop From A Stand?

[cassie]

Hudson is my 10 month old Saint Bernard pup. We've reached level 3 at doggy school, and our latest challenge is to have the dog heeling by our side, then straight into a drop/down when the command is given. I've never taught him to drop from a stand, only ever from a sit, so in class I was having to command him to sit first THEN drop but this is not correct, and not what I want ultimately. We've only had one lesson in level 3, and I was going to ask the instructor more about it at the end of the class but she had someone else hanging around asking questions, so I thought what the hell I'll try DOL.

Keep in mind he's a giant breed, weighing 60+kg, so physically "putting" him down or any such suggestion may not be so easy Thanks in advance, and my apologies if this has been done before.

[chicko]

Misha and i do the same at training, althought i never taught her to lay from a sit, it has always been lay from a stand. Getting her to lay STRAIGHT when she is in the heel position has been hard, she always kicks her bum out and ends of laying on an angle.

Basically i would teach him to 'stand' at a heel first and then use build up to a lay by using a a hand signal. I only reward when Misha is EXACTLY in the right position, so if she is sloppy or on an angle we do it again etc.

I will post a video for you later to show how i get her into a straight lay.

[cassie]

Thanks Chicko He can already stand on signal/voice command when heeling, so yeah will just have to try progressing from there. Thanks a video would be great

[Kavik]

Have you been using food? I always teach drop from a stand, never from a sit. You could try luring from a stand, bringing the food to the ground and either forward between his legs or back between his legs towards his chest.

[cassie]

Thanks Kavik - I do/did originally use food to teach simple commands when he was young, (sit, drop, etc, I would lure him into position) but the obedience club I go to doesn't allow food rewards to be used so I haven't done so recently, only verbal praise which he loves anyway. But perhaps I should go back to the food to train the correct behaviour first do you think? Then fase out the food?

ETA: Obviously it's a bit late now, but for future reference is it always better to train dogs to drop from a stand rather than from a sit? I trained Zephyr to do it from a sit first, and he had no problems progressing to doing it from a stand, so I didn't realise it would be such an obstacle for Huds.

Edited October 22, 2008 by cassie

[Kavik]

I would, but I always use food, and only go to clubs that allow food.

Or if he follows your hand you could try it without the food, just with your hand and praise (same movement as with food) - not sure how well this will work though, depends on how motivated he is to follow your hand with no food.

From your edit: If you teach a drop from a sit they may always want to do a sit first as you are experiencing. From a stand, you can teach a foldback drop which is quicker and efficient.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Kavik

[rocco]

Cassie I did the same "sit then down" with Rocco and paid the consequences. It was a nuisance because by the time he was in down the class had moved on to another three exercises and we were running to get back into rhythm and Roc is no Michael Flatley. Lesson learnt, to teach drop from stand next dog. Sorry I dont have any advice but good luck with Hudson.

[cassie]

Thanks for the further advice Kavik

And thanks Rocco! Glad to see I'm not the only dummy who taught it the wrong way :o

[corvus]

We taught Kivi Tarro down from a sit as it was the easiest way. Down from a stand was a while coming, but just took practice. He knew what down meant, just wasn't very enthused about doing it. He was more enthused about sit, so he'd sit, then down. We broke through this problem by making down a very cool thing for him to do. Chiefly we used his meals and he didn't get them until he downed. I thought at first he didn't know it well enough, but I would watch him and you'd give him the command and he'd think about it for a full 5 seconds or more (which seems like an age for a 9 week old puppy!) and then if you were still waiting he'd whine in frustration and go down real fast and bounce back up again. So he knew it, he was just holding out in the hopes I would give up. Once I figured that out we just practiced and practiced with really high value rewards, and also medium and low value rewards sometimes as well. Nowadays he goes down very fast from a stand or a sit. It's getting him to stay down that usually takes a bit of insistence! He does push-ups.

[chicko]

omg no food? misha would do NOTHING if i had no food haha

[cassie]

Thanks Corvus, I will start making him drop instead of just sit for his dinner Good idea.

LOL Chicko, I used to have Zephyr at the point where he wouldn't do anything unless I had food! Didn't want Hudson to be the same (although Zeph is much better now and does as he's told ) only because I want him to obey me and work FOR ME not the food as such...but then again I don't understand all the info on drives etc!

[Just Midol]

Why do some clubs not like food?

[TerraNik]

Why do some clubs not like food?

They might see it as bribery? That the dog learns only to do the commands if it knows it's going to get food...? Just my guess.

[cassie]

Why do some clubs not like food?

Is there anything wrong with a club that doesn't allow food?

ETA: I can't portray what tone I meant the above question in! Hence the edit... But that is a genuine question, not having a go at you Midol and the question is aimed not necessarily at you but at anyone. IS THERE anything wrong with such a club?

Edited October 23, 2008 by cassie

[ness]

Cassie one of the problems with using food too long is the fallout you had with Zephyr in that they won't do it without the food. Ness is similar to some degree but not entirely so. With my new baby Kenzie she maybe got lured with food maybe half a dozen times max. Then I switched to rewarding her and she isn't dependent on the food being there. Sometimes I'll reward her with a tug toy, sometimes a pat and she will happily engage and work whether there is anything there or not.

Edited October 23, 2008 by ness

[kamuzz]

Doesn't this relate to Steve (K9 force) saying that training in drive is better than rewarding with food? Maybe we need another thread about approaches to rewards.

[dogdude]

Why do some clubs not like food?

Many clubs that don't allow food see it as distracting and sometimes dangerous due to a class situation. If everyone is flipping food around, particulary in the beginners classes, there can be dog fights and personal space issues.

In some clubs that I have been in, there can be 20 plus new students in beginners who don't have a clue about reading dogs. The same can be said for some of the higher classes.

[cassie]

Cassie one of the problems with using food too long is the fallout you had with Zephyr in that they won't do it without the food. Ness is similar to some degree but not entirely so. With my new baby Kenzie she made got lured with food maybe half a dozen times max. Then I switched to rewarding her and she isn't dependent on the food being there. Sometimes I'll reward her with a tug toy, sometimes a pat and she will happily engage and work whether there is anything there or not.

Yeah, exactly, thanks You put it into words better than I could have; basically I want him to be able to work for whatever, anything, or nothing (other than pleasing me). Not "I will oooooooooonly sit if you give me a treat!"

Why do some clubs not like food?

Many clubs that don't allow food see it as distracting and sometimes dangerous due to a class situation. If everyone is flipping food around, particulary in the beginners classes, there can be dog fights and personal space issues.

In some clubs that I have been in, there can be 20 plus new students in beginners who don't have a clue about reading dogs. The same can be said for some of the higher classes.

It was explained to us in the first lesson why food wasn't allowed, and although I don't remember the exact reasons, it was pretty close to what you've just said Dogdude. Basically people may be rewarding at the wrong time (eg. dog sits, handler fumbles through pocket to get food, finally rewards a good 10-15 seconds later...) and yes also about the distraction issues, if one dog is being fed and one isn't, or something similar.

[huski]

I teach my dogs new tricks with rewards like food. I don't think there is anything wrong with it if you use it to teach them something/understand a command. Both my dogs will do a down from a stand without needing a treat to achieve it.

I could never have got my beagle to the point she is now without food! Thank dog my club allows it We were always told each dog learns through different things, some dogs like food/toys/praise etc. We are encouraged not to treat as much as we advance so that eventually we don't need to treat at all, or very irregularly.

Edited October 23, 2008 by huski

[Just Midol]

That's not a problem with food, that's a problem with the way you trained.

And I'd never attend a club that didn't embrace all methods of training which is also why I'll never attend a club. If they're worried about people flicking food around then have smaller class sizes. Irresponsible clubs.