Check Chains?

[Cosmolo]

I can appreciate both points of view as with my young boy the semi check is there as a 'back up' at this stage in his training but with my other 3 (except when Georgie is scared which is another thing entirely) i expect them to work just as well on a flat collar as a semi check or correction chain.

[Erny]

I can appreciate both points of view as with my young boy the semi check is there as a 'back up' at this stage in his training but with my other 3 (except when Georgie is scared which is another thing entirely) i expect them to work just as well on a flat collar as a semi check or correction chain.

My highlights.

So do I, Cosmolo. I'm only trying to make the point that just because any particular training tool/restraint aid is on, doesn't go to follow that it is being used and does not mean the dog can't or won't perform as well without it. This is an assumption and argument that many use to support their own argument (on both 'sides' of the fence, so to speak) and I think it is a wrong argument to use.

There are dogs around that do 'perform' differently when they are wearing or not wearing certain pieces of equipment but that is a matter of the handler having 'conditioned' their dog to it and not working to the opposite end. But even if they have 'conditioned' their dog in this way, it still doesn't mean that the training aid when on, is being used and that the dog is untrained, even though I prefer to train beyond that.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

Hi ho, only just took the time to read this thread...well not all of it but most of it.

Spotted devil, you are right in that when trying to discuss R+, R- etc, some people refer to these in an emotive sense, rather than the scientific sense. This, I believe, is where it makes it very frustrating for those who understand the scientific concept and discuss it in that term, only to be given an "emotive" based comment from others who may not understand it.

When I was learning it, I found it easy to follow this formula:

Positive: to add/give

Negative: to remove

Reinforcement: increases behaviour

Punishment: decreases behaviour

Add them together and you get:

Positive Reinforcement: adding/giving something to increase behaviour (give food, praise, pat etc)

Positive Punishment: adding/giving something to decrease behaviour (verbal or lead correction etc)

Negative Punishment: removing something to decrease behaviour (remove food, praise, pat etc)

Negative Reinforcement: removing something to increase behaviour (removal of the application of sensation or pressure)

I don't believe in "positive only" trainers...just like I don't believe in Santa Clause

Edited December 30, 2008 by Kelpie-i

[Banjo's Mum]

ok, I have to ask a stupid question ;)

What is a prong collar and what is a martingale??? Sorry for the ignorance, lol....

I have a normal flat collar on my Rotty pup at the moment and used to use a choker (check?) on all my other dogs with success.

[Anna H]

The steel one is a Prong (or "pinch") Collar... the fabric one is just one style of martingale collar (some martingales have chain loops, not fabric)

[Banjo's Mum]

The steel one is a Prong (or "pinch") Collar... the fabric one is just one style of martingale collar (some martingales have chain loops, not fabric)

Good Grief! Look at the Prong collar... OMG, can't say I like the look of that one and probably would not put one on my dog!

Thanks Chelseas Mum

[MonElite]

This is why people say OMG what a cruel tool. They dont look "friendly" do they?

however if you ever get a chance put it on our arm or leg and give yourself a correction, and than do this with a check chain. You will see what hurts more.... and you will be very surprised.

[Kavik]

I agree with MonElite - they feel different to a check chain and when I tried it on myself, the check chain stung and hurt for a longer period of time than the pinch collar.

[Banjo's Mum]

Wow! Thanks guys! ;)

But no it doesn't look very friendly at all!

[Erny]

Good Grief! Look at the Prong collar... OMG, can't say I like the look of that one and probably would not put one on my dog!

If you judge a book by its cover you run the risk of passing up the opportunity to read that book and it might be the best one out yet.

Yep - the PPCollars look medieval. No one is suggesting you use one on your dog if it's not suitable or if there is a different one that would do as well or better (with all things considered) .... but at least learn about the tool before you draw conclusions through hysterical emotions.

Head collars "look" kind and harmless, don't they .......

[Kelpie-i]

I worked with a dog just the other day who still carries the scars of the head collar on his nose. Apparently all the fur and skin had rubbed off so much it turned into a red raw lesion (sp?). Owners were beside themselves especially as the packaging stated it was "humane" ;)

They might have had it on too tight but good grief... what an ordeal for that dog and it still didn't stop his pulling!

[Banjo's Mum]

Good Grief! Look at the Prong collar... OMG, can't say I like the look of that one and probably would not put one on my dog!

If you judge a book by its cover you run the risk of passing up the opportunity to read that book and it might be the best one out yet.

Yep - the PPCollars look medieval. No one is suggesting you use one on your dog if it's not suitable or if there is a different one that would do as well or better (with all things considered) .... but at least learn about the tool before you draw conclusions through hysterical emotions.

Head collars "look" kind and harmless, don't they .......

Hi Erny!

Since having never seen one, was taken back abit....guess that yes am guilty of judging the book by its collar!!! I guess the moral to all of these posts is that if a certain collar/training technique works for you, then by all means do it. It doesn't mean that it will work for everyone.... just noticed a few of the earlier posts getting a bit heated maybe over what works and what doesn't. Our furkids, just like all of us, have different mindsets and behaviours and respond differently to different procedures!

[Erny]

Hi Erny! Since having never seen one, was taken back abit....guess that yes am guilty of judging the book by its collar!!!

Hey BM

Neat 'play' on words there .

I agree that the look of the collar, when first seen, does tend to make one draw breath. I did the same when I was shown one by a trainer, years and years ago. But he got me to hold it, feel it, put it on my leg to test it out, watch him train with it and then coached me in using one myself (before Victoria decided to ban its use here).

It's that "first reaction" that makes it so easy for those who decry it, to sound convincing. "Would you put THAT on your dog?!!!" is all they have to say. Neat bit of propaganda and easy to manipulate people into thinking the tool is nothing other than vile. Even though there is no evidence of harm from them.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Erny