Check Chains?

[Cosmolo]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course- its when one side starts attacking the other that creates problems. Positive trainers should be able to voice an opinion without being made to feel like idiots. Trainers who use aversives should be able to voice an opinion without being made to feel like they must be taking shortcuts to the detriment of the dog because they give a correction.

One of the trainers i respect the most uses no physical aversives but she also acknowledges they work and does not consider them cruel or inhumane- she just chooses not to use them and pursues other training methods. She also understands that not everyone who uses aversives is an extremist who doesn't use rewards and/or corrects dogs needlessly. I know what she does works for many dogs and respect her work immensely.

I think some disagreements come from ignorance too- i would never have used an e collar the way i do now had i not attended an amazing seminar a few years ago. Had you asked me prior to the seminar if i would have taught heel (for example) using an e collar i would have thought you were insane. I had been taught to use an e collar differently prior to the seminar and didn't like them much. Amazing the difference the training technique makes to a piece of equipment. Just because we have been taught one way doesn't mean that is the only way to use said piece of equipment.

[kelpiechick]

I don't have a problem with people having different views but positive trainers should be allowed to have their say without being made to feel like they are idiots.

Well said And what is it with the term 'purely positive' that is always thrown about on here?

I am a positive trainer and have never heard it referred to as purely positive before - the only 'purely positive' training I have heard of is the name of a book. In a perfect world I would like to think that I deal with unwanted behaviour by simply ignoring it, but I don't believe that perfect world exists - easy to ignore unwanted behaviour in some instances and reward wanted behaviour and this is my first choice, but not if I need an immediate consequence- say for example something that might be an 'emergency' situation. So does issuing a verbal 'correction' or NRM, timeout, etc. make me not a positive trainer - I don't believe so. As Susan Garrett says 'positive is not permissive'.

I do believe that positive trainers sometimes use what could be loosely termed as 'corrections' - but not on the learning quadrant of 'positive punishment' that is being advocated here. And also for the record, I have no doubt that positive punishment does work, not disputing that. And if that's your training method of choice - fine - whatever floats your boat.

But I kind of prefer to float my dog's boat as well as my own with relationship based training, as already mentioned by BC's4me :p

So for the OP (you poor thing!) - don't put a correction collar on a young pup - that seems to be agreed by all.

Once your dog moves out of the puppy stage, there are a lot of training options open to you - as you can see in this thread - which people on both sides feel passionate about. Is there a 'correct' way to train your dog? Probably not, so you will need to do some research to decide. (maybe not on here LOL!)

Talk to people who use different methods, try to actually see some dogs trained with different methods and make up your own mind. Plus you will need to work with whatever your dog gives you - some dogs are ideal candidates for particular training methods. I still believe that just about every dog can be trained with positive methods if you are willing to put in the time and effort, but as you can see, that is a point of huge dissention on here, so that is a personal belief only.

For the record, as a positive (but not purely positive!) trainer I would recommend reading from:

Susan Garrett

The late John Fisher

Ian Dunbar

Suzanne Clothier (who even advocates the use of prongs in certain situations)

Kay Laurence

Karen Pryor

Jean Donaldson

and I'm sure there are lots of others.

And I'm also sure that someone from the 'other side of the fence' can recommend another list of references for you.

Good Luck.

(off to research my next dog - probably get one of those 'easy' BC's or Tollers or Aussies )

Edited December 29, 2008 by kelpiechick

[Cosmolo]

I have a genuine question for the positive trainers- firstly i think kelpiechick makes a good distinction that positive training typically just doesn't include positive punishment but you have to use other types of correction (even ignoring) to train. Then we get into the whole physical vs psychological corrections which i think is for another thread! But my question is- Does positive training in your mind include negative reinforcement- such as a headcollar?

To be honest i think both sides feel 'bashed' in discussions such as these and it would be a whole lot simpler if we could all agree that different things work for different dogs and owners.

Don't know how to quote sorry-

"But I kind of prefer to float my dog's boat as well as my own with relationship based training, as already mentioned by BC's4me"

Its things like this where it becomes hard not to be defensive- i do this too, just in a different way. My dogs are very happy and i delight in them wanting to work for me and building a relationship too. I just take a different path.

[kyliegirl]

I have a genuine question for the positive trainers- firstly i think kelpiechick makes a good distinction that positive training typically just doesn't include positive punishment but you have to use other types of correction (even ignoring) to train. Then we get into the whole physical vs psychological corrections which i think is for another thread! But my question is- Does positive training in your mind include negative reinforcement- such as a headcollar?

To be honest i think both sides feel 'bashed' in discussions such as these and it would be a whole lot simpler if we could all agree that different things work for different dogs and owners.

Don't know how to quote sorry-

"But I kind of prefer to float my dog's boat as well as my own with relationship based training, as already mentioned by BC's4me"

Its things like this where it becomes hard not to be defensive- i do this too, just in a different way. My dogs are very happy and i delight in them wanting to work for me and building a relationship too. I just take a different path.

having a headcollar does not make it a negative reinforcement if you make positive things happen with it.. however if your tugging at the head collar to annoy the dog into doing something its negative reinforcement, which is what E-collars do, the dog recieves an annoying shock and when it finally does what its asked it goes away.. the faster it does it the faster it goes away..

positive reinforcement is where there is no real force, you dont say no or eheh when the dog does something wrong, there is no punishment of any kind and instead you give the dog another job to remove the one it was doing..

for example, a dolphin found great pleasure in harassing a swimmer, because dolphins cannot be punished they decided to teach the dolphin that everytime this swimmer was in it was to push a button so it could get fish.. fish is more rewarding than harassing the swimmer and it cant do two things at once so they successfully prevented the dolphin from further harassing the diver without using any types of negative reinforcement. They just gave the dolphin something much more rewarding than what it was doing before.

items only become negative if you associate negative behavior with it. Like a leash will become negative if you use it to pull the dog around with it or hit it with it.. But if you give the dog treats on it and take it for walks with it, its now a positive item.. So no, a headcollar isnt negative if you train the dog to see it as a positive tool and do not use it negatively for unwanted behaviors.

[Kavik]

So you're saying a headcollar wouldn't be seen negatively by the dog at all? It does tighten when pulled which is uncomfortable for the dog . . . that is not negative? If you never tighten it, why would you bother having it on at all? Many dogs rub their face along the ground trying to get them off - because they like them so much?

[kyliegirl]

So you're saying a headcollar wouldn't be seen negatively by the dog at all? It does tighten when pulled which is uncomfortable for the dog . . . that is not negative? If you never tighten it, why would you bother having it on at all? Many dogs rub their face along the ground trying to get them off - because they like them so much?

i meant the headcollars which dont tighten.. even ones which tighten when pulled it would depend how the dog is conditioned. In one of susan garretts dvd's she states that many people only pull on the dogs collar when they want their dogs to come here or stop them doing something, so when the dog comes after playing with his friends he will know that when you go for his collar your going to make all the good stuff stop so hes less likely to come to you.. So what she did was made positive games out of pulling on the dogs collar, making the dog think that pulling on his collar is a game, giving it a positive thing. So later if she pulled on the dogs collar, because positive things happen with his collar being pulled and his neck being tugged about he will think "hey i remember this game theres alot of fun stuff with this game" and so therefore what is usually a negative thing has now become a positive. Even thought the dog is being tugged about by his collar (most dogs dislike this) positive stuff was associated with it so the dog enjoys it and finds it rewarding.

[The Spotted Devil]

The problem with these discussions IMO is that they fall apart because no two people are talking about the same thing - particularly in terms of the definitions of positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment. A quick 'Google' comes up with a nice description:

The definition of reinforcement and punishment depends upon whether an event is presented or removed after a response is made, and whether the subject's responding increases or decreases.

Any event that increases responding is called reinforcement and any event that decreases responding is called punishment; any event that is presented is called positive and any event that is removed is called negative.

The provision of food or praise or petting when a behaviour is performed is positive reinforcement. When the pressure of a headcollar is released when the dog behaves appropriately it is negative reinforcement i.e. the dog stops pulling to avoid the pressure of the headcollar. Similarly, the very gentle pressure and release of a horse rider's legs is negative reinforcement.

Negative does not equal 'bad'. It's about application and giving the lightest possible signal.

[persephone]

Negative does not equal 'bad'. It's about application and giving the lightest possible signal.

good explanation

[kelpiechick]

I have a genuine question for the positive trainers- firstly i think kelpiechick makes a good distinction that positive training typically just doesn't include positive punishment but you have to use other types of correction (even ignoring) to train. Then we get into the whole physical vs psychological corrections which i think is for another thread! But my question is- Does positive training in your mind include negative reinforcement- such as a headcollar?

"But I kind of prefer to float my dog's boat as well as my own with relationship based training, as already mentioned by BC's4me"

Its things like this where it becomes hard not to be defensive- i do this too, just in a different way. My dogs are very happy and i delight in them wanting to work for me and building a relationship too. I just take a different path.

Firstly the headcollar - here's the age old problem, which I believe is the same problem for any training tool of choice, whether it be halti, prong, check, etc. - unfortunately in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use correctly - and that would be me with some of the aforementioned tools I am happy to admit - 'do no harm' can turn into 'do plenty harm'.

I tried a headcollar with both my older 2 dogs - 2nd of the 2 (ACD) it worked a treat, in that once I had conditioned him to wearing it (still 'positive' in my mind) he walked beautifully on it, was happy to wear it and I never had to pull, jerk or anything else remotely associated with that. So for me, that was a positive training tool in my mind.

Older dog (BC X) was a different story - even though conditioned to wear it, it never really seemed to 'put him in the correct position' as it did for the ACD - I don't understand why. He continued to fight it the whole way to the point where I would have been pulling on it to get him where I wanted him to be - in my mind no longer a positive training tool for him and also now having the potential to create 'damage' so I didn't use it any more and tried something else.

Not sure if that answers your question or not and other trainers may have different thoughts but this is how I would classify them IMO. And as for any thing used, they are just tools at the end of the day to get you where you want to go - with the ACD I still trained heeling without the halti as I did not want to rely on always having to have it, it was just that the halti created more opportunities to reinforce the correct position.

Secondly, the other age old problem of misinterpretation by email, which is why I don't post in training much to be honest. (Dont' know what got into me today- LOL)

The 'floating the boat' comment is aimed at MY dogs and how I know they respond to training based on a lot of 'trial and error' so please don't interpret it as being aimed at YOUR dogs, anyone else's dogs and whatever training methods you may choose to use and feel defensive, that wasn't my intention at all and I'm sorry if you took it personally. All I am saying is that at the end of my 2 younger dog's lives, even though I have made plenty of mistakes with their training and will not do everything the same with the next one, all the training tools (whatever they may be) that I have used with them still 'sit right' with ME inside MY head and I wouldn't change them if I had the chance to go back.

My one regret with my older 2 dogs is that I cannot say that and I wish I could go back and change some of the methods and tools I used. And I still think I have a great relationship with these dogs but in MY mind it could have been different and I will forever regret it.

If you are happy with how you train and the subsequent relationship you have created, your dog is happy and willing to work with you, then you are 'floating their boat' too - surely it's an individual thing. I think the end result matters more than the 'path' used to get there.

[MonElite]

I tried a headcollar with both my older 2 dogs - 2nd of the 2 (ACD) it worked a treat, in that once I had conditioned him to wearing it (still 'positive' in my mind) he walked beautifully on it, was happy to wear it and I never had to pull, jerk or anything else remotely associated with that. So for me, that was a positive training tool in my mind.

Im going to change this to suit my situation

I tried a prong collar with both my 2 dogs - dobermanns it worked a treat, in that once I had conditioned them to wearing it (still 'positive' in my mind) they walked beautifully on it, was happy to wear it and I never had to pull, jerk or anything else remotely associated with that. So for me, that was a positive training tool in my mind.

Ill do one for Midol too

I tried a ecollar with my young GSD - it worked a treat, in that once I had conditioned him to wearing it (still 'positive' in my mind) he walked beautifully on it, was happy to wear it and I never had to pull, jerk or anything else was in fact remotely associated with that. I didnt even issue a command. So for me, that was a positive training tool in my mind.

How is that?

Edited December 29, 2008 by MonElite

[kelpiechick]

I tried a headcollar with both my older 2 dogs - 2nd of the 2 (ACD) it worked a treat, in that once I had conditioned him to wearing it (still 'positive' in my mind) he walked beautifully on it, was happy to wear it and I never had to pull, jerk or anything else remotely associated with that. So for me, that was a positive training tool in my mind.

Im going to change this to suit my situation

I tried a prong collar with both my 2 dogs - dobermanns it worked a treat, in that once I had conditioned them to wearing it (still 'positive' in my mind) they walked beautifully on it, was happy to wear it and I never had to pull, jerk or anything else remotely associated with that. So for me, that was a positive training tool in my mind.

Ill do one for Midol too

I tried a ecollar with my young GSD - it worked a treat, in that once I had conditioned him to wearing it (still 'positive' in my mind) he walked beautifully on it, was happy to wear it and I never had to pull, jerk or anything else was in fact remotely associated with that. I didnt even issue a command. So for me, that was a positive training tool in my mind.

How is that?

If it fits with YOUR training philosophy and sits right with YOU inside YOUR head then for YOU it's fine!

How is that?

No comment for the 2nd part you did for Midol though as I don't like people putting words into other's mouths no matter how well they think they know them. Plus I never used the words 'I didn't even issue a command' in my post - not sure where that came from or how it's relevant?????

[MonElite]

I was trying to demonstrate that there is no difference in trainign a dog with some equipment just in the tools people use....

Head collar, prong collar or ecollar serve the same purpose. Neither of them is more or less possitive than the other. Ecollar I guess maybe a bit as the dog doesnt associate the stim with the handler, where it would with other tools.

Edited December 29, 2008 by MonElite

[JulesP]

No in my mind using a headcollar is not positive. It does create some form of discomfort and if you are staying in the positive sphere you want to avoid that. If something is going wrong with my training I look at me and try and communicate better with the dogs.

[Erny]

having a headcollar does not make it a negative reinforcement if you make positive things happen with it.. however if your tugging at the head collar to annoy the dog into doing something its negative reinforcement, which is what E-collars do, the dog recieves an annoying shock and when it finally does what its asked it goes away.. the faster it does it the faster it goes away..

That's not correct, Kyliegirl.

"Negative Reinforcement" means "taking away something the dog doesn't like". So the removal of that "something it doesn't like" is the reinforcement for the behaviour you want. With head collars, the dog pulls, the pressure of the head collar is applied, the dog doesn't like it, the dog stops pulling (even if that be because of some other action the handler has taken to encourage the dog to stop pulling for that moment) and so the pressure of the head collar is released.

Now - you can take exactly the same scenario as above but switch the word "head collar" for "e-collar" and it proves exactly the same. With the e-collar training, I have the dog on lead so I can show it how to turn the (low) stimulation off. When the dog (eg) makes a move to come towards me, the (low) stim stops. IOW, the dog has been negatively reinforced for showing the wanted behaviour.

The sensation of the stim is not "shock" when used with the method I describe. It is more like an annoying tingle or a flea bite.

positive reinforcement is where there is no real force, you dont say no or eheh when the dog does something wrong, there is no punishment of any kind and instead you give the dog another job to remove the one it was doing..

Positive reinforcement is simply where the animal/dog receives something good for exhibiting the wanted behaviour, therefore causing that behaviour to occur again. Positive reinforcement is commonly used in training methodology regardless of what tool is being utilised.

for example, a dolphin found great pleasure in harassing a swimmer, because dolphins cannot be punished they decided to teach the dolphin that everytime this swimmer was in it was to push a button so it could get fish.. fish is more rewarding than harassing the swimmer and it cant do two things at once so they successfully prevented the dolphin from further harassing the diver without using any types of negative reinforcement. They just gave the dolphin something much more rewarding than what it was doing before.

What you describe here is "counter conditioning". They would have used positive reinforcement to achieve it. Quite possibly also negative punishment (which would be the withholding of reward for the wrong behaviour).

items only become negative if you associate negative behavior with it. Like a leash will become negative if you use it to pull the dog around with it or hit it with it.. But if you give the dog treats on it and take it for walks with it, its now a positive item.. So no, a headcollar isnt negative if you train the dog to see it as a positive tool and do not use it negatively for unwanted behaviors.

That isn't right Kyliegirl. You're looking at it from your perception. Not the dogs nor how the equipment and use of the equipment actually works or impacts on the animal.

What would be your explanation of the dog that pulls around on the end of the lead whilst out on the walks that it likes to go out on? And what's the point of having a head collar on a dog if you're never to use it? Why would you bother?

Edited December 29, 2008 by Erny

[Sayreovi]

Toller, it's not that you disagree. Lots of people disagree with me and I don't believe they have no idea. I feel that you don't understand these methods because you've NEVER seen them performed successfully and you've NEVER performed them successfully. That's saying something really. You've said over and over that you've never seen a dog trained on a prong collar (to loose leash walk) able to loose leash walk once it is off. Numerous experienced dog owners & traners posted saying they have. It's all in the method, and if you can't achieve that, then you're doing it wrong.

What's it saying Midol? That check chains don't seem to work for the majority of people even given the right "training" themselves?

No you have it wrong. I said that I've never seen a dog trained with a check chain walk as well with it off as it did when on.

Others are saying they have.....well I haven't which is where I came too my conclusion, different experiences = different opinions, and that doesn't mean we don't know how they are used :rolleyes:

I am not actually opposed to them being used ... I also previously stated that I know some dogs require them.

Ok. Except that your earlier post which sweepingly claimed them (PPCollars & Check Chains) as being "gimmicky tools" that arent 'training' in my eyes they are just a temporary solution that dont 'fix' anything" seems contradictory to that and gives the impression that you don't understand the concept of how these tools are used in "training". I'm presuming now that was unintentional.

Just because I think they don't work doesn't mean I am opposed to others using them....it's their dog and way of training. Some people probably think that using clickers don't work, same thing.

If it really is effectively training the dog, than why do "experienced dog owners and trainers" still put a check or prong on their dogs once they have been "trained"?

[Just Midol]

I dunno Midol I have never ignored or isolated my dogs. I don't think that an ecollar is a humane way to train though and would only use it in a life and death situation.

For the record I used to train the 'old way'.

I don't have a problem with people having different views but positive trainers should be allowed to have their say without being made to feel like they are idiots.

And I should be able to have my say without people implying I am cruel, or hurting my dog-handler relationship.

[Erny]

If it really is effectively training the dog, than why do "experienced dog owners and trainers" still put a check or prong on their dogs once they have been "trained"?

I speak for myself here .... although I know many other trainers and have read of many other trainers (professional and non-professional) who do the same - having the chain or PPCollar on the dog doesn't mean it is being applied. It is there for instances where it might be required. Beats going "oops, I wish I had the chain/PPCollar on as I could have trained for that situation" .... situations that can crop up unexpectedly in an instant and not even necessarily easily be "set up" to be repeated. A "fail safe", if you like. Doesn't mean the dog cannot go out without the aforesaid equipment and its former training is 'out the window'.

In the later stages of her training my previous (avatar) girl (bless her cotton socks) wore a check chain. I couldn't remember in the last 3 years of her wearing it when I'd actually ever applied it. But it was there should I need it. ETA : there were many occasions where she didn't wear her chain and her prior learning wasn't diminished.

Do you regularly go out without a collar, lead (laws aside), clicker, toy motivator and/or food? Why not, if the dog is trained?

Edited December 29, 2008 by Erny

[Erny]

Some people probably think that using clickers don't work, same thing.

Actually, I don't know of anyone who has ever said "clickers don't work". The clicker is simply a "marker sound". Some of us use a verbal marker. Some use a clicker. Each has its own advantage over the other and what we use depends on what is working for the dog. "Marking" the correct behaviour is extremely common and tmk a 'standard' in training. I don't use a clicker - I find the verbal marking works fine on the whole. Doesn't mean I go around decrying the use of the clicker.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

My dogs have been trained in part on correction chains and walk on flat collars in most situations. 2 of them always wear flat collars, 1 of them wears a semi check at times (if going to higher distraction environments) as he is 12 months and gets distracted easily and the other wears a chain only if i have to take her into a situation where she may get frightened as she can slip her collar

[Sayreovi]

Do you regularly go out without a collar, lead (laws aside), clicker, toy motivator and/or food? Why not, if the dog is trained?

No, Yes, Yes, Yes and Yes.

My dogs always have (flat) collars on so I don't consider that a training aid.