Check Chains?

[Cosmolo]

I don't use a correction chain to force a dog to do anything- i use it to provide a consequence to a behaviour i don't want the same way i provide rewards to the behaviours i do want so that the dog can choose what he wants to do based on the consequences.

A correction chain or headcollar for me is just a different type of consequence to stopping or changing direction or removing a reward- nothing works for every dog so i choose which of the above combinations work for the dog i am training. I might use a correction on a flat collar and a prey drive reward for dog A and guidance on a headcollar and a food reward for dog B and a stop start method with no correction for dog C.

By the time i get to many pulling dogs the behaviour has been inadvertently rewarded for months or years so some techniques that perhaps would have been effective with the dog as a pup, are no longer effective. I also have to consider a dogs quality of life- if the dog is never going for walks (thus building up more frustration and energy) and method A means it will be another few months before the owner can handle the dog on a walk, and method B means the dog can go for a walk (with owner in control) now while progressing the dogs training at the same time- i will usually choose option B.

What do you think the dog prefers? With some dogs i can give 1-2 corrections and spend the rest of my walk/ training session providing rewards rather than waiting/ stopping/ ignoring which with some dogs can take much longer. Clarity and consistency is key- whatever training method you use. The training method should be dictated by the dog, not the handler- unless the handler is impaired in some way- and this will vary as every dog is different.

And as i said earlier in this thread- i would not generally use a chain/ hc/ prong etc on a puppy- flat collar, food or toy rewards and a good trainer would be best.

[Erny]

As per what Cosmolo has said.

They are not "gimmick training tools" - if they were they would not have lasted the decades that they have.

It seems to me that those who are decrying the tools are regarding the tool as an item in exclusion and perhaps are unaware of how they are used and/or in conjunction with training.

Also, without intending to flame, it seems that those who have decried the tools here have BC's, Aussie Shep and Tollers. Biddable dogs. Not all the the same. And as Cosmolo has pointed out ..... trainers are often called upon when the owner is having difficulties. Prior learning and experience plays a big part and there are enough times when some additional assistance is required to help with that dog's training away from unwanted behaviour.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Erny

[bordacollies4me]

As per what Cosmolo has said.

They are not "gimmick training tools" - if they were they would not have lasted the decades that they have.

It seems to me that those who are decrying the tools are regarding the tool as an item in exclusion and perhaps are unaware of how they are used and/or in conjunction with training.

Also, without intending to flame, it seems that those who have decried the tools here have BC's, Aussie Shep and Tollers. Biddable dogs. Not all the the same. And as Cosmolo has pointed out ..... trainers are often called upon when the owner is having difficulties. Prior learning and experience plays a big part and there are enough times when some additional assistance is required to help with that dog's training away from unwanted behaviour.

ah yes i was wondering when someone was going to point that out i have Border Collies, the easier to train dogs... i don't think so.... i have seen some very unruly/pigheaded/arrogant Borders...

i don't deny that your training tools don't work... i am one to explore all methods/tools of training and have done so.. i choose the methods i use now, because i know that they do work.. are sometimes harder to train with than with the use of a training tool... as you have to teach the dogs to think... make them work for their reward... i have helped train other breeds of dogs not just border collies... currently on my training list are 2 GSD's, a Bull ArabX, a JRT, Boxer, and a few Border Collies.. all these are using positive methods and are showing great results, all have developed there relationship with the dogs more since starting training with me and have put in place Criteria/rules that both dogs and handlers need to follow...

i have owned a GSD and trained him to be a well behaved dog, never pulled on lead he was trained with a check chain/flat collar.... although it wouldn't have mattered what collar he had on he would never have pulled on lead, becasue as a puppy he learnt that to be by me was were his rewards came from and what i wanted of him.. i had a great Relationship with him....

I do however feel that such training tools have no place to be used on puppies, the initial topic was whether check chains should be use on puppies...and that it what i have said thus far...

ETA: Cosmolo you are exactly right what will work with Dog A may not with Dog B or C... i wouldn't rule out the idea of teaching owners to use a check chain correctly... in conjunction with positve methods... if that is what would give a quicker result... sometimes it also makes the owners feel better having such training tool on their dog...

Edited December 28, 2008 by bordacollies4me

[BJean]

Also, without intending to flame, it seems that those who have decried the tools here have BC's, Aussie Shep and Tollers. Biddable dogs. Not all the the same. And as Cosmolo has pointed out ..... trainers are often called upon when the owner is having difficulties. Prior learning and experience plays a big part and there are enough times when some additional assistance is required to help with that dog's training away from unwanted behaviour.

ah yes i was wondering when someone was going to point that out i have Border Collies, the easier to train dogs... i don't think so.... i have seen some very unruly/pigheaded/arrogant Borders...

Edited December 28, 2008 by lilli

[BJean]

I don't use a correction chain to force a dog to do anything- i use it to provide a consequence to a behaviour i don't want the same way i provide rewards to the behaviours i do want so that the dog can choose what he wants to do based on the consequences.

What do you think the dog prefers? With some dogs i can give 1-2 corrections and spend the rest of my walk/ training session providing rewards rather than waiting/ stopping/ ignoring which with some dogs can take much longer. Clarity and consistency is key- whatever training method you use. The training method should be dictated by the dog, not the handler- unless the handler is impaired in some way- and this will vary as every dog is different.

And as i said earlier in this thread- i would not generally use a chain/ hc/ prong etc on a puppy- flat collar, food or toy rewards and a good trainer would be best.

They are not "gimmick training tools" - if they were they would not have lasted the decades that they have.

It seems to me that those who are decrying the tools are regarding the tool as an item in exclusion and perhaps are unaware of how they are used and/or in conjunction with training.

Also, without intending to flame, it seems that those who have decried the tools here have BC's, Aussie Shep and Tollers. Biddable dogs. Not all the the same. And as Cosmolo has pointed out ..... trainers are often called upon when the owner is having difficulties. Prior learning and experience plays a big part and there are enough times when some additional assistance is required to help with that dog's training away from unwanted behaviour.

Erny, cosmolo, tony et al

you give me faith

Edited December 28, 2008 by lilli

[Benji&Cuddles]

ffs. Wrong account again.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Benji&Cuddles

[Just Midol]

I give up, the ignorance surrounding corrections & aversions is ridiculous. Those who oppose them, at least in this thread, clearly show they have little (aka no) understanding of how to use them.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Lord Midol

[MonElite]

Since when has the prong been used to keep the dog interested in the handler?

Along with any correctional tool, since it was used to correct the dog for not being interested in the handler.

[Just Midol]

Since when has the prong been used to keep the dog interested in the handler?

Along with any correctional tool, since it was used to correct the dog for not being interested in the handler.

You correct your dog every time he doesn't show interest in you?

Personally, I correct my dog for doing the wrong thing. I don't use any of my correctional tools to force my dog to show interest in me, in fact, using one in that manner on Montu would be ridiculous and turn him into a pathetic working dog.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Lord Midol

[MonElite]

You correct your dog every time he doesn't show interest in you?

what do you call interest? A responce to a call/command? If yes than my answer is yes.

If its not than Im speculating on whats your definition of interest and lets say its my dog following me all the time pestering me for something - than my answer is no.

However - like with any tool used in an avoidance training - yes you can use a prong to teach a dog to pay attention to you.

Actually replace the words ecollar with a words prong collar in you ecollar manual and you will get the idea.

Should I write what is avoidance training? to make this easier for you to understand?

Edited December 28, 2008 by MonElite

[Just Midol]

You correct your dog every time he doesn't show interest in you?

what do you call interest? A responce to a call/command? If yes than my answer is yes.

If its not than Im speculating on whats your definition of interest and lets say its my dog following me all the time pestering me for something - than my answer is no.

However - like with any tool used in an avoidance training - yes you can use a prong to teach a dog to pay attention to you.

Actually replace the words ecollar with a words prong collar in you ecollar manual and you will get the idea.

Should I write what is avoidance training? to make this easier for you to understand?

When teaching loose leash walking you don't issue a command...

Not all training requires a command, and I don't want the dog to show interest in me. He has to listen to be, but showing interest implies he is watching me which is something I DO NOT want in my working dog or my huskies.

I know exactly what avoidance training is, try being a little less pretentious.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Lord Midol

[MonElite]

When teaching loose leash walking you don't issue a command...

You do in the method/s I know.... including avoidance method.

You didnt tell the dog a command when you were TEACHING it to walk on loose lead?

No heel, no walk, no slow, no nothing? How was the dog to know what to do?

If you know exactly what avoidance training is that you know that you can teach the the dog ANY command by avoidance method.

Looking at the handler is just another motion for the dog, you can teach attention by avoidance too. There are some not so bad old videos on how to do it, not Leerburg, I unfortunatelly cant remember by whom, maybe someone else will tell us.

[Just Midol]

When teaching loose leash walking you don't issue a command...

You do in the method/s I know.... including avoidance method.

You didnt tell the dog a command when you were TEACHING it to walk on loose lead?

No heel, no walk, no slow, no nothing? How was the dog to know what to do?

If you know exactly what avoidance training is that you know that you can teach the the dog ANY command by avoidance method.

Looking at the handler is just another motion for the dog, you can teach attention by avoidance too. There are some not so bad old videos on how to do it, not Leerburg, I unfortunatelly cant remember by whom, maybe someone else will tell us.

Okay.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Lord Midol

[MonElite]

Im interested in the method you know for teaching the dog to walk on loose lead with no command, can you please give me a qucik description.

[Just Midol]

Dog already knows he controls the stimulation.

Dog applies pressure to lead, I turn on stim, when dog moves back, I release. Sometimes I guide the dog (stop) but not often, as I accidentally taught him to sit the first time -.-

Dogs has now figured out that pressure on lead = uncomfortable. All without a command. I don't want to issue a command every time my dog pulls.

ETA: It's easier to see how I do it in person, rather than me explaining it.

ETA2: Forgot to post the prong version Dog pulls, correction. Dog pulls, correction. Dog pulls, correction. Dog couples pulling with correction.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Lord Midol

[horus]

ETA2: Forgot to post the prong version Dog pulls, correction. Dog pulls, correction. Dog pulls, correction. Dog couples pulling with correction.

That only applies if your timing with the correction is right. Dog may associate the correction with the stimulus that is making it pull in the first place, not necessarily the pulling.

[MonElite]

I see people do the second method you described all their lives and all they do is walk the dogs and correct them every 5 steps.

Its not the best of methods Midol

the one using the full 4 stages of the avoidance method rather thant he 2 you described is far more effective.

[Cosmolo]

I disagree Monelite

Provided the dog understands how to respond to a correction, has been set up and rewarded multiple times for the correct behaviour (ie not pulling) and is started off in a no-low distraction environment, i think teaching loose lead walking without a command can work just fine and when done properly the handler should NOT need to continuously correct the dog. May not be suitable for every dog but works for many.

[MonElite]

This is a typical method used by the average person down the road that has no idea abut rewarding the dog for correct behaviur, timing of the correction, environment to train etc. Hence most of the time its ineffective.

However I agree that with the right handler and in a right environment it can work.

[Cosmolo]

Myself and my clients that i teach it to do know all of those things you mention. I see many 'average joes' using commands too- that just get progressively louder and more frustrated when the dog does not respond- as the timing etc of their command and correction is out- doesn't mean using a command is an ineffective technique.