Check Chains?

[MonElite]

He's got an e-collar on him now, and has had it on him for about 5 weeks now.

do you ever take it off?

[Just Midol]

He's got an e-collar on him now, and has had it on him for about 5 weeks now.

do you ever take it off?

Certainly, it goes on for 5-8 hours a day.

[BelgianPup]

I wouldn't use more than a flat collar on a puppy. Check chains, if you know how to use them, can be a useful tool with some dogs. I agree.

Check chains can be very effective if used properly - but must be used properly and certainly it seems highly unlikely to need one on a pup.

We used positive rewards with our Belgian - and a harsh 'NO' when she did something wrong. When she was older, at the recommendation of our trainer, we began using a check chain.

Edited December 22, 2008 by BelgianPup

[sas]

Prongs or checks arent 'training' in my eyes they are just a temporary solution that dont 'fix' anything.

Then go and learn to use one.

Right because i dont know how to use a check chain? Perhaps you should go learn how to train a dog to not pull without any equipement?

Sorry to burst your bubble but they are merely a temporary control, one that is no different to a halti or gentle leader, the dog immediately starts pulling as soon as the prong or whatever is taken off.......what has the dog learned about not pulling? Uhh nothing!

*shakes head* I expected more from you...a person who usually comes off sounding pretty educated on the training front BUT you've just shown that like any other uneducated person you can knock something you haven't tried.

I've used a prong many a time with fosters and taken it off and they haven't continued to pull. Clearly you are not familiar with prong training principals. A prong isn't suitable for all dogs but surely you know that....just like any training technique isn't one size fits all.

I'm really disapointed to hear such words out of your mouth.

Edited December 26, 2008 by sas

[Sayreovi]

*shakes head* I expected more from you...a person who usually comes off sounding pretty educated on the training front BUT you've just shown that like any other uneducated person you can knock something you haven't tried.

I've used a prong many a time with fosters and taken it off and they haven't continued to pull. Clearly you are not familiar with prong training principals. A prong isn't suitable for all dogs but surely you know that....just like any training technique isn't one size fits all.

I'm really disapointed to hear such words out of your mouth.

Isn't it great that I really just don't care?

I am familiar enough to have formed the opinion I have, maybe I've only seen them used the wrong way......who knows.....either way that is my opinion on the tools for now and I never expected everyone to agree with me

Edited December 26, 2008 by tollersowned

[Just Midol]

*shakes head* I expected more from you...a person who usually comes off sounding pretty educated on the training front BUT you've just shown that like any other uneducated person you can knock something you haven't tried.

I've used a prong many a time with fosters and taken it off and they haven't continued to pull. Clearly you are not familiar with prong training principals. A prong isn't suitable for all dogs but surely you know that....just like any training technique isn't one size fits all.

I'm really disapointed to hear such words out of your mouth.

Isn't it great that I really just don't care?

I am familiar enough to have formed the opinion I have, maybe I've only seen them used the wrong way......who knows.....either way that is my opinion on the tools for now and I never expected everyone to agree with me

Not really a question of "maybe".

Based on your posts, you've never seen them used correctly nor have you ever used them correctly, but ignorance is bliss.

[Sayreovi]

*yawns*

Yup Midol, ignorance is bliss......especially when others can't fathom that I have different experiences and therefore different takes on how they are effective.....but then again what am i saying? You are always right aren't you?

Mmm i am sure all those experienced trainers that have demostrated to me would be slightly insulted if they read your post but anyway.....

[Just Midol]

Mmm i am sure all those experienced trainers that have demostrated to me would be slightly insulted if they read your post but anyway.....

I hope they're insulted, they're not very good trainers if they don't know how to condition.

I'm not entirely sure I'd consider then experienced trainers if they don't understand the basics of using training aids. It's not something that's tied in with the aid, it's common with all aids.

[bordacollies4me]

K9: When the prong collar is fitted to the dog & the dog is just allowed to self correct then yes, when the collar is taken off it will pull again, but that would be the fault of the trainer. This will happen with any correction tool but it is more likely to occur with tools such as the halti or GL as they are more difficult to use in a training method.

When the prong collar is used correctly the dog will learn to walk with no collar or leash on, next to the handler, fast.

Some people who dream of the perfect world also forget that even when a dog has become collar smart to the prong collar & wont pull when wearing ine but will pull when one is not fitted, this is a drastic improvement over the dog that was pulling like a seatm train regardless of what the handler did before the prong collar...

i have been reading through these pages sometimes laughing, disagreeing, agreeing... going to reply decided not to... but am now deciding to...

i use postive training methods, have used check chains with my first border with success... he will also wear an e-collar for barking... yes he does know when he does or does not have it on, and usually only wears it when travelling in the ute...

One thing i have to disagree with is that Haltis are more difficult to use in a training method... i use haltis with all my dogs, usually start puppies off with them... they rarely wear a Halti past 5 months of age... most of the training with my dogs/puppies is done without leads/collars, they learn to stay beside me from an early age when out walking in the yard or safe area... i could put any type of collar on my dogs and when i ask them to walk beside then they will... i then introduce the lead, but it very rarley pulls tight.. if it does i just stop... I have 4 Border Collies, and can walk all on or off lead, together across abusy road to an unfenced paddock, when they are given the command they are allowed to all go off on their own, when we have finished our walk through the paddock, i ask all to come beside, we then recross the road and walk home...

best way to teach a dog is without a collar/lead, if they will stay beside you then it would not matter what the dog wears...

K9: The most desired direction is to teach your pup to walk with you, not pull you. This is done with a motivator & consistency.

totally agree!!

[Sayreovi]

Mmm i am sure all those experienced trainers that have demostrated to me would be slightly insulted if they read your post but anyway.....

I hope they're insulted, they're not very good trainers if they don't know how to condition.

I'm not entirely sure I'd consider then experienced trainers if they don't understand the basics of using training aids. It's not something that's tied in with the aid, it's common with all aids.

Ahh Midol, Midol, Midol I really shouldn't laugh at you but you are making a fool of yourself and I am enjoying watching you do so

Edited December 27, 2008 by tollersowned

[kyliegirl]

K9: When the prong collar is fitted to the dog & the dog is just allowed to self correct then yes, when the collar is taken off it will pull again, but that would be the fault of the trainer. This will happen with any correction tool but it is more likely to occur with tools such as the halti or GL as they are more difficult to use in a training method.

When the prong collar is used correctly the dog will learn to walk with no collar or leash on, next to the handler, fast.

Some people who dream of the perfect world also forget that even when a dog has become collar smart to the prong collar & wont pull when wearing ine but will pull when one is not fitted, this is a drastic improvement over the dog that was pulling like a seatm train regardless of what the handler did before the prong collar...

But isnt that also a problem when the dog becomes collar smart. This would mean your dog is reliable when hes wearing the prong, but once you put the flat on he loses all interest in you, so in that theory you haven't gained the dogs respect which is why he is also collar smart. The only thing achieved is your dog now wont pull when you have the prong on. It hasn't achieved any respect from the dog nor his complete attention.

Just a thought..

As for check chains, I would restrain from using them on a puppy as they are still prone to more damage when young.

I think you can get just as much success with any training tool you use if you do it right and work hard. However I dont think you gain the same amounts of respect from each training style, I think it varies, and it also varies depending on the personality of your dog.. Some dogs trained in prongs are brilliant, others may break down into a nervous wreck because they have a softer personality. I think it really depends on the personality of the dog, its trainability and your leadership ability.

[Benji&Cuddles]

Wrong account.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Benji&Cuddles

[Just Midol]

Mmm i am sure all those experienced trainers that have demostrated to me would be slightly insulted if they read your post but anyway.....

I hope they're insulted, they're not very good trainers if they don't know how to condition.

I'm not entirely sure I'd consider then experienced trainers if they don't understand the basics of using training aids. It's not something that's tied in with the aid, it's common with all aids.

Ahh Midol, Midol, Midol I really shouldn't laugh at you but you are making a fool of yourself and I am enjoying watching you do so

You're ignorance isn't funny, it's sad. You're the only one laughing, incidentally, you're the one who is wrong.

K9: When the prong collar is fitted to the dog & the dog is just allowed to self correct then yes, when the collar is taken off it will pull again, but that would be the fault of the trainer. This will happen with any correction tool but it is more likely to occur with tools such as the halti or GL as they are more difficult to use in a training method.

When the prong collar is used correctly the dog will learn to walk with no collar or leash on, next to the handler, fast.

Some people who dream of the perfect world also forget that even when a dog has become collar smart to the prong collar & wont pull when wearing ine but will pull when one is not fitted, this is a drastic improvement over the dog that was pulling like a seatm train regardless of what the handler did before the prong collar...

But isnt that also a problem when the dog becomes collar smart. This would mean your dog is reliable when hes wearing the prong, but once you put the flat on he loses all interest in you, so in that theory you haven't gained the dogs respect which is why he is also collar smart. The only thing achieved is your dog now wont pull when you have the prong on. It hasn't achieved any respect from the dog nor his complete attention.

Just a thought..

As for check chains, I would restrain from using them on a puppy as they are still prone to more damage when young.

I think you can get just as much success with any training tool you use if you do it right and work hard. However I dont think you gain the same amounts of respect from each training style, I think it varies, and it also varies depending on the personality of your dog.. Some dogs trained in prongs are brilliant, others may break down into a nervous wreck because they have a softer personality. I think it really depends on the personality of the dog, its trainability and your leadership ability.

What training methods improve respect? Continuously handing out treats?

Dogs become collar smart when you screw up. Using a prong has nothing to do with respect and I don't see how it's even relevant.

BTW, even if the dog only doesn't pull when the prong is on it is still an achievement. Many people can't walk their dogs due to pulling, so even if the dog becomes collar smart if it means it can be walked then that is a plus.

Since when has the prong been used to keep the dog interested in the handler?

[kyliegirl]

What training methods improve respect? Continuously handing out treats?

Dogs become collar smart when you screw up. Using a prong has nothing to do with respect and I don't see how it's even relevant.

BTW, even if the dog only doesn't pull when the prong is on it is still an achievement. Many people can't walk their dogs due to pulling, so even if the dog becomes collar smart if it means it can be walked then that is a plus.

Since when has the prong been used to keep the dog interested in the handler?

Respect as in the dog wont pull in the first place because its the leader who goes infront and the dog should be taking the follower position. There are many ways to train which can gain and work towards your dog treating you with respect.

the whole point of dog training and having a dog is for a companion and a friend, they are part of your family and they need to know who is in charge. If your not in charge you wont have 100% control over your dog, so therefore the only thing your dog is interested in is being in charge and your not a factor.. If the dog isnt interested in you how do you expect to execute commands reliably and for him to respond?

Every post I read from you midol it seems the only thing you expect of your dog is for it to be a robot, you never show any compassion towards having your dog as a friend or having its respect, just a mere tool which needs to obey you or else..

Even policemen play with their dogs and treat them as a best friend and expect their dogs respect and loyalty in return. What exactly are you trying to gain from your pup?

Edited December 27, 2008 by kyliegirl

[Just Midol]

So if your dog views you as the leader it should automatically know what you require of it, and give 100% compliance?

ETA: My dogs are robots, the batteries go in a slot below the tail.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Lord Midol

[kyliegirl]

So if your dog views you as the leader it should automatically know what you require of it, and give 100% compliance?

ETA: My dogs are robots, the batteries go in a slot below the tail.

*sigh* if you that's what you gained from my posts I would hate to know how you expect to understand anyone elses posts..

training and leadership go hand in hand, you need both to be successful. If you only apply training and dont care about leadership you get a dog who wont listen to you all the time, especially in tempting situations. if you apply leader ship but no training, you have a dog who respects you but because it has no training so will not respond to anything you say because it wasn't trained to understand those commands.

Edited December 27, 2008 by kyliegirl

[Just Midol]

So if your dog views you as the leader it should automatically know what you require of it, and give 100% compliance?

ETA: My dogs are robots, the batteries go in a slot below the tail.

*sigh* if you that's what you gained from my posts I would hate to know how you expect to understand anyone elses posts..

training and leadership go hand in hand, you need both to be successful. If you only apply training and dont care about leadership you get a dog who wont listen to you all the time, especially in tempting situations. if you apply leader ship but no training, you have a dog who respects you but because it has no training so will not respond to anything you say because it wasn't trained to understand those commands.

exercise, training and discipline are the three things dogs need for a balanced relationship with you. If you don't supply all of these you will find problems.

I don't really agree.

I think you can get both:

100% compliance with poor leadership, and,

0% compliance with perfect leadership.

It might be easier if you have great training & leadership, but imo, they aren't both required.

I think obeying obedience commands have very little to do with leadership. It's all about perceived benefits for the dog, if the dog will receive no benefit for not performing (or no punishment) then there is no incentive to carry out the command, especially if it is doing something more interesting.

Your original point was letting a dog get collar smart does two things;

1) Reduces the dogs interest in the handler.

2) Fails to build respect (which I think is wrong, the word should be leadership. They have different meanings).

I don't see how any training aid (collars) builds interest in the handler, unless you correct the dog for not showing interest in you but even then that's not the collar or aid building interest, it is the handler. You've still not explained this point.

Building respect... I don't even see how this is relevant when it comes to using an aversive. I build my leadership in many ways, but when I wack a prong or an e-collar on my dog my goal isn't to increase my leadership, it might happen as the dog learns I am boss (receives an aversive/correction when he ignores me) but it isn't my goal... So failing to increase or enhance leadership isn't really an issue.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Lord Midol

[bordacollies4me]

i think some of you are missing the most important part of training/owning/working a dog and that is the RELATIONSHIP part... building a great relationship with your dog, and have your dog wanting to be and do things with you is what training/owning/working a dog is all about... if we don't have good relationships then it can become very hard to get respect/leadership/compliance out of the dog...

thats why we do not need to use check chains and other training aids on puppies, building the relationship and having the puppy want to be with you is the best method of training IMO

[Erny]

Dont know about you Midol, but i dont see teaching loose lead walking without a prong or check chain the hard way, i call it the best way.

Sometimes, with some dogs. But not always. You've only mentioned PPCollars and Check Chains here. Do you use other equipment as a training aid TO? On what and how many dogs? I'm not setting up a challenge here (or at least, I'm not intending to), but I'm curious to understand more clearly where you are coming from. Is it just the named training tool items that you are opposed to, or others as well?

Prongs or checks arent 'training' in my eyes they are just a temporary solution that dont 'fix' anything.

This is your opinion, TO, and I acknowledge that. Although I'm surprised .... you don't have to agree with their use but I thought you knew more to know that it is the combination of the equipment (which is an "aid") and the training method. It's the use of the equipment by the handler that determines the item's efficiency in training. They often are not a "temporary solution". The training tool that gives you even that "temporary" lull in the dog's unwanted behaviour can at least be enough of a window to be able to use your training method. In this way, the dog learns what is required of him more easily. "Minimum to obtain maximum" is IMO a good determining factor as to which tool to use with which dog.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Erny

[Wajoma's Aussies]

building the relationship and having the puppy want to be with you is the best method of training

Bordacollies4me - they're the best words i've read in this topic so far!!

The problem with check/prong/etc collars is that you're forcing the dog to do something, which - when you remove the 'tool' leaves the dog thinking it's now 'free' to do as it pleases.

better to ask "WHY is the dog pulling away from me?" or "WHY do I need gimmick training tools to stop my dog from running away?"

If you're not getting the result you want from your dog, then ask yourself what YOU are doing wrong, not what is the DOG doing wrong - the dog is only responding to your 'training' ... if the response isn't what you want, then the training is what's at fault, not the dog.