Check Chains?

[MonElite]

I never said it doesnt work, I said there there are more effective ways.

OT - I really hate seeing a guy that lives down my street walk his dog.

he had a GSD, now he has a bull type dog.

They both pull like steam trains and the length of the street (about 600m) he must correct that dog 300 times with no effect whatsover on his current as well as the past dog.

I have offered him that I show him what to do as it break my heart seeig his current dog practically drop to the ground each time it gets a massive correction, but no he knows what to do.

Recent methof of his is a stick in his hand too, and each time the dog pulls he hits it on the nose.

Amazing but true, the dog still pulls. Just walks cowering all the time now.

[Erny]

The way I see it, simply attaching the lead should be the "command" for not pulling. The only time IMO that you would need a verbal command would be to differentiate between when the dog can pull, and when he can't (or you can use different equipment to 'cue' this). But most 'pet-dog' people simply don't want the dog to pull on the lead. Period. I generally don't train loose lead walking with a command either. I use the combination between 'check' and encouragement and reward to pave the way for the dog to make the decision of where its own advantage lays.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Erny

[Sayreovi]

You're ignorance isn't funny, it's sad. You're the only one laughing, incidentally, you're the one who is wrong.

Mate, I am the only one laughing because I am the only one (who is posting at least) who knows how ignorant you are!

Sometimes, with some dogs. But not always. You've only mentioned PPCollars and Check Chains here. Do you use other equipment as a training aid TO? On what and how many dogs? I'm not setting up a challenge here (or at least, I'm not intending to), but I'm curious to understand more clearly where you are coming from. Is it just the named training tool items that you are opposed to, or others as well?

Clickers, food, toys, my voice and flat collars here. On my own two dogs mainly.

Well I am not actually opposed to them being used, I have used check chains before with no success even under trainers supervision and guidance (pretty sure I posted that but it went un-noticed as things do) but never on puppies or on dogs that I haven't at least tried other methods first.

I also previously stated that I know some dogs require them.

[Wajoma's Aussies]

I give up, the ignorance surrounding corrections & aversions is ridiculous. Those who oppose them, at least in this thread, clearly show they have little (aka no) understanding of how to use them.

try being a little less pretentious.

:rofl:

I just hope the puppy owner from the beginning of the post finds a trainer who focuses on positive non-abusive methods, and leaves the check chain behind ...

eta :: tollerowned - Snap

Edited December 28, 2008 by meeka

[Sayreovi]

Meeka: Isn't it amazing how we have no idea or understanding just because we don't agree with him?

[Just Midol]

Hey, look, I am being called cruel again. Yay for us, we're all cruel!

Toller, it's not that you disagree. Lots of people disagree with me and I don't believe they have no idea. I feel that you don't understand these methods because you've NEVER seen them performed successfully and you've NEVER performed them successfully. That's saying something really. You've said over and over that you've never seen a dog trained on a prong collar (to loose leash walk) able to loose leash walk once it is off. Numerous experienced dog owners & traners posted saying they have. It's all in the method, and if you can't achieve that, then you're doing it wrong.

Horus, true, but she asked how I do it. I know my timing is perfect. Obviously when learning to use a correction you should have someone experienced teach you, but I figured we're so far OT I didn't need to mention it.

MonElite, the method works fine for me, and has been effective with every dog I've used it on. I'll continue to use it till it fails, then I'll try something else. Of course, I don't even use a prong anymore.

---

I'll throw this out there. I sort of do disagree with check chains. I don't like the way they apply the pressure. IMO, everyone using checks should move to prongs. JMO of course.

[Erny]

Double post.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Erny

[Erny]

I am not actually opposed to them being used ... I also previously stated that I know some dogs require them.

Ok. Except that your earlier post which sweepingly claimed them (PPCollars & Check Chains) as being "gimmicky tools" that arent 'training' in my eyes they are just a temporary solution that dont 'fix' anything" seems contradictory to that and gives the impression that you don't understand the concept of how these tools are used in "training". I'm presuming now that was unintentional.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Erny

[MonElite]

I sort of do disagree with check chains. I don't like the way they apply the pressure. IMO, everyone using checks should move to prongs. JMO of course.

I have the same opinion.

I think for an average Joe that walks the dog and doesnt want the dog to pull the "lets go for a walk" becomes a command.

Some might call it trigger, just like putting the collar would be.

[Just Midol]

I guess it comes down to that different courses for horses thing (or is it horses for courses?) - we all have our preferred method, neither is right or wrong, the methods we use just happens to suit the majority of dogs we come across and works for us.

[Erny]

I think for an average Joe that walks the dog and doesnt want the dog to pull the "lets go for a walk" becomes a command.

Some might call it trigger, just like putting the collar would be.

..... actually, I think for the average "Joe", "lets go for a walk" becomes a trigger for out of control excitement. It is usually said well before the lead is even on .... often said when the thought of a walk has just entered the owner's mind and before he/she has even gone to get the lead from wherever it is kept.

On your theory MonElite and in this scenario, that would be the equivalent of saying "drop" to the dog, but expecting that the dog comply with the command some minutes later. I think you would find that for those people who do say "let's go for a walk" with dogs who don't pull on the lead throughout the walk, even if they didn't say it their dogs would most likely exhibit the same behaviour as they normally would. IMO, achieving a dog who doesn't pull on the lead is generally about 'conditioning' as opposed to 'command'.

Oh .... and I agree with Midol. I personally have a preference to other training tools, however that being said I have and do use the check chain where it is appropriate and have achieved as well as seen a lot of good results from its use. Would rather use the PPCollar over a check chain ...... but alas they are banned from use in Victoria. For the record - for young pups I prefer to not use correctional tools.

[MonElite]

At least we are in agreement about prongs v's check chains

[JulesP]

I wanna get an ecollar thingo.....but I would be putting it on my pupils

It all gets down to the negative/positive thing I guess. I find it interesting that the people that use negative training think the positive people are idiots and don't know anything. Anyone that says that they don't like prongs, ecollars etc gets jumped on.

[Just Midol]

I wanna get an ecollar thingo.....but I would be putting it on my pupils

It all gets down to the negative/positive thing I guess. I find it interesting that the people that use negative training think the positive people are idiots and don't know anything. Anyone that says that they don't like prongs, ecollars etc gets jumped on.

Nah.

I find it perfectly acceptable for people to disagree with using prongs.

They get jumped on when they state they do not work, when they do not understand how to use it. Prongs DO work, it is as simple as that. If it's not working for a handler, then it's handler error or it is not suitable for the particular dog.

Positive only doesn't work for me and my dogs. This comes down to my skill using positive only methods and my dogs. Maybe someone else could successfully give my two huskies perfect recalls with positive only methods but I can't, so I'll use an e-collar.

The thing is positive only trainers are quick to say corrections won't work, but from what I can see those who use corrections never say positive only won't work, only that it won't work for all dogs.

[JulesP]

I think corrections do work and quicker. I just prefer a different way of doing things for training and I have a breed of dog that allows this. For behavioural issues like stock chasing I would use an ecollar. As I am a member of a club that uses positive methods I am disappointed in the number of people that just want to jump straight to a check chain and not put in the work.

[Cosmolo]

Just for the record, i used to be as purely positive as they come so i have seen both sides and i know training without aversives can definitely work. I choose to train with a combination of aversives and rewards now because i believe its better for the dog and owner. I find it interesting that so many people think that as soon as you use an aversive, you don't use or know how to use effective rewards and motivators- nothing could be further from the truth.

[Just Midol]

I think corrections do work and quicker. I just prefer a different way of doing things for training and I have a breed of dog that allows this. For behavioural issues like stock chasing I would use an ecollar. As I am a member of a club that uses positive methods I am disappointed in the number of people that just want to jump straight to a check chain and not put in the work.

I honestly find the entire positive/negative argument silly & focused too much around the physical aspects of training and it ignores the psychological side of punishments.

I won't jump straight to a check chain, but I will move straight to an e-collar. I see no reason why I should spend hours teaching something which I can achieve in a few minutes if I use an e-collar. Either a tool is humane, or it isn't, to me. So if the tool is humane, I'll use it whenever I think it'll achieve our goals the quickest. ETA: I won't use physical corrections whilst in the fear period, and will limit psychological corrections.

Even the word "no" could be considered a psychological correction. Why are physical corrections so bad, yet psychological corrections okay?

Why is it humane to ignore a dog, but inhumane to give a quick correction which causes very little short term pain.

Why is it okay to socially isolate a dog, but it is inhumane to use an e-collar?

Cos, imo, good training should encompass both! I use rewards and corrections, motivation and aversives. 99% of the time when training commands with my e-collar he gets a reward as well.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Erny]

I honestly find the entire positive/negative argument silly & focused too much around the physical aspects of training and it ignores the psychological side of punishments.

Even the word "no" could be considered a psychological correction. Why are physical corrections so bad, yet psychological corrections okay?

Why is it humane to ignore a dog, but inhumane to give a quick correction which causes very little short term pain.

Why is it okay to socially isolate a dog, but it is inhumane to use an e-collar?

Spot on, Midol. And something I and a few others have 'argued' much in another forum. The thing is, 'psychological' is not as tangible and often easily ignored by those who prefer to deem that it doesn't suit their point of view.

[persephone]

I honestly find the entire positive/negative argument silly & focused too much around the physical aspects of training and it ignores the psychological side of punishments.

Even the word "no" could be considered a psychological correction. Why are physical corrections so bad, yet psychological corrections okay?

Why is it humane to ignore a dog, but inhumane to give a quick correction which causes very little short term pain.

Why is it okay to socially isolate a dog, but it is inhumane to use an e-collar?

Spot on, Midol. And something I and a few others have 'argued' much in another forum. The thing is, 'psychological' is not as tangible and often easily ignored by those who prefer to deem that it doesn't suit their point of view.

No argument here

[JulesP]

I dunno Midol I have never ignored or isolated my dogs. I don't think that an ecollar is a humane way to train though and would only use it in a life and death situation.

For the record I used to train the 'old way'.

I don't have a problem with people having different views but positive trainers should be allowed to have their say without being made to feel like they are idiots.