Erny Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) And no ..... I'm not in love with Midol and have no reason to be sticking up for him, before anyone assumes so. smile.gif Oh hey Jeff ?????????????????????????? Shut up!!! Smarty farty. ETA: I do note that my last post seems to have caused not only a 'cease fire' but also a 'cease conversation altogether' !!! Edited October 22, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I shall make it my mission to fire up the thread for you Erny/Mrs Midol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Erny/Mrs Midol. Got yourself a toy boy Erny?? Are you a cougar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I shall make it my mission to fire up the thread for you Erny/Mrs Midol. Lordess to you, thank you Jeff. Go on. Make my day . I think perhaps Midol would be more embarressed than I. Sorry for getting you into this, LM. Jeff is so incorrigible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 And Midol posted he was 'warned' about discussing his training on here by a few people. I was one of them, and I stand by my suggestion to him. Yeah, just a pity I have trouble keeping my mouth shut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 no offense meant towards you or Montu LM I was having a simple discussion with K9 and his information I miss my sheppy now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 And no ..... I'm not in love with Midol and have no reason to be sticking up for him, before anyone assumes so. smile.gif Oh hey Jeff ?????????????????????????? Shut up!!! Smarty farty. ETA: I do note that my last post seems to have caused not only a 'cease fire' but also a 'cease conversation altogether' !!! Aah I've come back in and now we have a wedding on the horizon!!! Good to see people getting back on track and playing nice. You all have so much to offer on the subject of canines! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) Aah I've come back in and now we have a wedding on the horizon!!! Holy toledo!!! That's working things a bit fast!!! Wedding? No way!!! I absolutely have NOTHING to wear!!!! (Although I have a few check chains that might suffice as 'bling' and a disused head halter that is the right colour for 'something blue'.) Edited October 23, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
percyk Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 used to train with choker collars as they were called way bach then ( then they were called check chains lol - just to soften the blow to the owner not the dog lol) i remember one night at training with our goldie - a big boofy good natured boy who loved all people and dogs he wasnt walking to heel as wellas the trainer liked so she grabbed him off me - wriggled the collar way into the back of his ears and away she went and so did he! he looked like hed been trained in micro seconds no such luck though lol hed work for the check chain but not otherwise eventually he did but it took some time i just didnt like to have the collar up so high nowadays i use martingales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) used to train with choker collars as they were called way bach then ( then they were called check chains lol - just to soften the blow to the owner not the dog lol) Need to correct you here (pun intended LOL) Percyk. People who know and understand the check chain - particularly trainers - do not call them "check chains" to "soften the blow to the owner". The reason we refer to them as check chains is because THAT is what they should be used for ..... to CHECK the dog, NOT to CHOKE it. Hence the aversity to the name "Choke" chain. Using the term "Choke chain" gives people who don't know any better the wrong impression of how they should be used. I abhor how these chains are labeled, the more so because they are so freely available you can pick them up from the supermarket and that there are absolutely no written guidelines for their use that accompanies them. Edited October 23, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 the point is to start without a tool and think a little. Its easy to put a chain on a pup - yes it will work but you're missing valuable groundwork.even security/shutzhund puppies get heaps of praise, encouragement and rewards when theyre young. A pup under 6 months doesnt need a chain. Thats 4 months of training before you decide if the pup may need a correction chain down the track (after 6 months you see new attitudes mature so this is why I dont discount that needing a chain later will never happen especially in some types of dogs) or if it is simply some gaps on your training. i have been reading this thread and have to say i fully agree to this statement! Nekhbet.. this is my kind of method and i love it... none of my puppies EVER wear or have worn a check, chocker OR prong lets alone an E collar.. NEVER!!!! Mine has a leather collar around it's neck and i work on prey. i have taught my puppy recall heeling, sit, drop you name it without the need for a check, chocker or the harsher methods... now i'm saying this is MY way only becasue i had someone training me a while back telling me i need to put a prong on my puppy (6 months old) and he broke her... literally put too much darn pressure on her and she became weak and nervous.. and would scream at any grabbing of her collar or even trying to put the leash on her.. she got to the severe point that she would bite you. She did go to a pet home who eventually put work into her but she still is not a dog you can walk on the street. Due to my inexperience at the time i didnt pick up on the incorrect methods of this so called trainer. however i will say this much i am working on ball retrieval with one of my older girls who likes to drop it a metre away from me.. i have her on a LEATHER collar and on a soft long lead and gentle pull her in that little closer when she's come to me at the point she thinks its ok.. i am correcting her by pulling her closer and then doing prey building etc.. but i strongly dont believe in prongs and harder methods being used on puppies at all. and think anyone who does is crazy! Soft chockers or check chains naturally if it works why not.. i used one of them when i used to show my dal puppy in early 90's and never had a problem! But for training i use what works for me and i havent had a problem. I have an 80 kilos Sarplaninac who has had NO training in his 4 years of life AND try getting him to heel.. well it's leather collar for him.. if i find he pulls i flip my leach into a hoop around his neck and control him a little more a bit like Ceaser Milan does AND he's got into my car which he WOULD DIE before he would get into one. BUt he does it. personally if it aint broke why fix it.. meaning if it's working for you successfully then use it, apply it we are all different! i dont condemn anyone forwhat they use unless they are putting too much pressure on babies.. and thas to me is up to 12 months even older for some breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I was really shocked when I saw how much handler praise motivates Montu. With Axle, he couldn't have cared less if I was happy with him Montu seems to think it's the best thing in the world.Though, as soon as possible I am putting an e-collar on him (minute fear period is over) Midol one question.. why on earth would you want to even consider putting an E collar on a pup or a dog ASAP??? if he gets stimulated by your rewarding hin then what is that going to achieve? please explain this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 (edited) ... none of my puppies EVER wear or have worn a check, chocker OR prong lets alone an E collar.. The above indicating that you believe an e-collar is the worse thing by comparison to a check or Pressure Point Collar (PPCollar) aka 'prong' collar? Why do you think that? ETA: Emphasis of my question is not about whether they should be used on pups - I haven't used any of them on my youngster either - but merely on your expression of the aforementioned equipment. Edited December 20, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I was really shocked when I saw how much handler praise motivates Montu. With Axle, he couldn't have cared less if I was happy with him Montu seems to think it's the best thing in the world.Though, as soon as possible I am putting an e-collar on him (minute fear period is over) Midol one question.. why on earth would you want to even consider putting an E collar on a pup or a dog ASAP??? if he gets stimulated by your rewarding hin then what is that going to achieve? please explain this? Because I'm not going to wait for him to disobey me, what if one day I ask him to recall and he doesn't, it's been 100% before but this one time he decides not to and I don't have a lead on him? I have no way of correcting it. My way of training recalls is to never, ever, give the dog an option of disobeying right from when he is a pup to an adult. He's got an e-collar on him now, and has had it on him for about 5 weeks now. I've never had to use it yet, but I'll remain prepared for when I do need to use it. I don't use an e-collar as a correction usually, but will do so, and I'd use an e-collar before I'd use any other tool - I don't even use prongs anymore as I feel the e-collar causes less discomfort, but is more effective. When I do use my e-collar as a correction I think it is one of the softest corrections I can apply. I use Steves method which works off the lowest level the dog can feel, it probably causes less discomfort than pulling on a lead does! I've also bonded him too closely to me and I'm having to fix that and the two ways I've been told to do this is: 1) Less time with me. 2) Less vocal handler praise, more physical praise. The combination of both means he is more likely to ignore one of my commands in the near future as his only reward at this stage, is my praise which I can not give too much of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 (edited) Midol - but using the "low-stim" method which is the method both Steve and I use with it, requires training with it first (to teach the dog how to move away from the annoyance it causes). Not waiting for the moment that you HAVE to use it because your dog didn't respond to command. You might be prepared to use it, but have you prepared your dog for it? (ETA: I'm not suggesting you use the e-collar or any correctional tool on a pup.) Curious - how has "bonded too closely" affected what you do/want to do with him? Edited December 20, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 why are you using an e collar on a pup Midol? You should be concentrating on building drive, handler-dog relationship and socialisation to bring out the best in your dog and you dont need an e-collar for that. Rediculous, dont push your pup too early let them mature at their own pace and work them when they show they are ready not when you THINK they are ready. A lot of people in security are in a desperate hurry to have the working dog down pat ASAP. If it takes 2-3 years so be it. If it takes 12-18 months somethings not right.ETA If you are so suprised how handler praise affects a dogs enthusiasm then put down the E-collar and go learn some more before you push the dogs drive into the ground. Because all those helping me are telling me too. You just seem to be anti anything I do. I find it odd that you seem to think I am doing everything wrong, yet every other experienced security & schuhtzhund trainer I've spoken to has no problem with the speed I am doing it at. And also, the majority of trainers I speak to consider 12-14 months the usual training length. I am starting to see why I was repeatedly warned not to post about Montus training on here. It doesn't matter though, I'll follow the advice of my trainer and those who have been helping me all along. Midol... i should be putting this in a PM but i just want to say this much as you know how important MONTU is also to me.. there has to be a cut off end.. you need to let Montu be a puppy and rest also.. you WILL burn him out... you know that i do NOT condemn your trianing methods nor your choice of trainers as i helped you get one of them....., BUT I DO CONDEMN the thought of an E COLLAR put on a puppy.. a As Nekhbet said (julie you're not old as some of your points are very true) i know i burnt out my first working dog/pup.. he's now a pet dog (2yo) and when you raise your hand or voice he pees himself drops to the ground and shakes...... BECAUSE i WAS TOLD to put a stupid E on him i was told to do this and that and ended up breaking him.. burning him out.. just in one snap! Montu needs to rest, to be a dog agina.. he's loosing stimulisation becasue you are working him to the ground.. let him play and rest for the next month.. you will see a different dog.. take him out let him mingle with people, kids pet him and let him have relaxing events, NOT just work work work.. what happens to you when you work work work work 20 hours 7 days.. dont you burn out too? what's your energy like..?? would hate to see one drive in that condition!! OR RUN!!! now you know me well enough to know i'm not telling you OFF but advising you.. do consider it.. you need to enjoy montu as a pet dog too not a robot. he's not a machine.. you WILL burn him out i'm just waiting for that phone call, you tell me his heart has given up OR i've pushed him too far.. mate.. will be a shame! you need to back track a bit and return the FUN back into his life.. stop trianing for a bit.. you wont be able to work him as a security dog for a while yet, and at this rate... he will snap! Ask the question CAN you can make a child into a man by being his general.. you can only make a mess of him.. my thougths and hopes are with you matie.. they really are! good luck but also know that i have experienced 2 broken dogs by so called great trainers... NEVER AGAIN! i love my trainer now and i also take Nekhbets advice and she's been great... i am doing a totally different method with my 13 weeks old puppy.. i'm letting her have ALL the FUN and happiness taking her everywhere.. and she's soo stable in nature its wonderful. Please be careful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 (edited) ... none of my puppies EVER wear or have worn a check, chocker OR prong lets alone an E collar.. The above indicating that you believe an e-collar is the worse thing by comparison to a check or Pressure Point Collar (PPCollar) aka 'prong' collar? Why do you think that? ETA: Emphasis of my question is not about whether they should be used on pups - I haven't used any of them on my youngster either - but merely on your expression of the aforementioned equipment. NO Erny i use an E collar on two of my girls.. one of my girls has no break method when she locks into someone (eg during training or working civil training) it's do or die with her... the police want her badly but she's not for sale. So the e is on her ONLY for recall even then i have trouble as she has no pain threshold and just attacks (by this i mean bite work you can flank her but once she's bitten she only bites harder even the E on MAX cant break her.. she is hard on the out. she will OUT but after jsut about breaking ones arm off). but thats only when she's so prey driven or locked into prey. otherwise soft as a kitten.. i just dont approve of it to be used on puppies.. puppies are babies.. you dont stick a condom on your baby sons penis to stop him from getting a girl pregnant do you?? but you teach him when he gets older and understands! i dont have a problem with prongs OR e collars I just CANNOT see the point of it on a puppy.. NOR can i understand how a puppy can have one.. i think someone is insane to suggest that. INHO it would be hypercrytical of me to say NO NO i dont believe in them.. i have both and there have been times i have to use both... and i only do when there is no other way out. but i prefer to try other means first! i just cant understand a puppy with them that's all! that's almost very Natzi like edited to correct for better understanding Edited December 20, 2008 by madboutgsd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Midol - but using the "low-stim" method which is the method both Steve and I use with it, requires training with it first (to teach the dog how to move away from the annoyance it causes). Not waiting for the moment that you HAVE to use it because your dog didn't respond to command. You might be prepared to use it, but have you prepared your dog for it? (ETA: I'm not suggesting you use the e-collar or any correctional tool on a pup.)Curious - how has "bonded too closely" affected what you do/want to do with him? thank you Erny about to ask the same question! sounds like Seperation anxiety to me more then bonding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 (edited) Thanks, Madbout .... just checking as I otherwise wasn't certain about how to interpret what you had written. I agree with allowing pups to develop and that those early weeks should be about socialising to the world without placing great amounts of pressure on them. Like Midol, I don't want my youngster to 'learn' that he doesn't have to respond to my recall command, so I don't use it unless I'm absolutely certain he WILL recall. And I place both myself and himself (off-lead) only in environments where I am confident that if I want to recall him, this will happen. If I'm not confident, he remains on long-line. He's not ready for high distraction work, although I am recognising signs that his drive is becoming stronger than it was when he was merely a baby pup as he is more easily focussed on his drive toy now, even in the face of low intensity distractions - the same or even lesser distractions that used to draw him away from his drive toy. My focus was and remains at the moment, building drive and although some obedience training is occurring (and doing well) it isn't my main focus and it doesn't comprise of the bulk of our 'drive' fun. ETA: Just a brag. My boy is a bit 'noise' skittish. First exposure to fireworks sound tonight (close by). I was outside, he scooted inside (quite startled with the noise and I expect, the flashing), but I whipped out the drive toy and gave the magic words and he was back out like a shot and into the 'drive' game. Not so long ago, getting him to recover and respond positively wouldn't have been so easy. Admittedly, the fireworks were short lived. I'm planning up to be 'ready' for the next lot - only hope there aren't any unscheduled ones that I can't be prepared for. New Year's Eve for me is going to be a "training night". I won't be going anywhere . Sorry - I'm swinging OT. Edited December 20, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 (edited) And Midol posted he was 'warned' about discussing his training on here by a few people. I was one of them, and I stand by my suggestion to him. I think Midol is heading in the right direction with his pup and I am very pleased with the progress he is having with Montu’s training. I was the one who put Midol in contact with his dog’s breeder, I was also the person who put Midol in contact with an appropriate trainer in QLD to assist him with raising and training his dog for protection work. I have no issues with the way Midol has been training his pup so far, and I do not see why anyone else should be having any. Jeff you know how much i respect you and knowing you say this.. well then i will back down Sorry Midol... but Jeff has WAY more experience then i do and i know Jeff is your mentor.. Thank you Jeff this makes me rest assure! Erny Not a problem!! hard to explain correctly here.. without verbal comms Edited December 20, 2008 by madboutgsd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now