MonElite Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Nice to see all the members of the dog training fraternity banding together to assist someone with a genuine question - NOT There were countless repllies on the subject.... And as any threads on any forum they evolve, this one evolved to use of an ecollar on a young dog. Still a training tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Nice to see all the members of the dog training fraternity banding together to assist someone with a genuine question - NOTObviously there are some personal grievances here that need to be aired. Isn't that what PM is for or a face to face chat? You are all big enough and ugly enough daresay not to hide behind a thread. AND DON'T ANYONE DARE SAY THEY WEREN'T GETTING PERSONAL We get it, some of you don't have a great deal of respect for the other people's methods. That's life. Anyway I expect the OP is this very minute booking his Aussie Bulldog in for Protection Training K9: I have attempted plenty of times to re direct the thread, your right it shouldnt go this far off topic, but most threads do, for many reasons. Check chain opinions anyone???? K9: I don't use check chains or prescribe them on any dogs, I use Martingale collars on pups, purely from a safety stand point. They wont slip over the pups head. I don't advise people to use corrections though on pups under 20 weeks as I have mentioned. Also be aware of the development calendar posted in the puppy section, this can be a great aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) Nice to see all the members of the dog training fraternity banding together to assist someone with a genuine question - NOT There were countless repllies on the subject.... And as any threads on any forum they evolve, this one evolved to use of an ecollar on a young dog. Still a training tool. Sure Monelite, but this one got personal hence the banding together comment. And I believe one of the rules says don't railroad and don't stray too far off topic. The OP asked about check chains and there wasn't much info provided about those, he asked about the harm, I wouldn't say there were countless replies, countless to-ing and fro-ing about e-collars and protection work with personal barbs thrown in yes. Sure, threads evolve, but there is a fine line between evolution and railroading... Put it this way if this were my post, I dont' feel I would be that pleased at where it ended up and I wouldn't feel my question had been answered at all but just my opinion. All I feel I have learnt AGAIN is that certain people on DOL don't like each other very much so thanks for at at least!! I personally come here to learn, I couldn't give a sh*t about whether so and so likes so and so, bores me senseless. Protection training and referring to paragraphs in handbooks has NOTHING to do with opinions on check chains. Anyway neither does this now so I'm off. Edited October 22, 2008 by Quickasyoucan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Just reread the first page - answers the OPs question right there with lots of responses on topic (including mine) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Sure Monelite, but this one got personal hence the banding together comment.And I believe one of the rules says don't railroad and don't stray too far off topic. The OP asked about check chains and there wasn't much info provided about those, he asked about the harm, I wouldn't say there were countless replies, countless to-ing and fro-ing about e-collars and protection work with personal barbs thrown in yes. Sure, threads evolve, but there is a fine line between evolution and railroading... Put it this way if this were my post, I dont' feel I would be that pleased at where it ended up and I wouldn't feel my question had been answered at all but just my opinion. All I feel I have learnt AGAIN is that certain people on DOL don't like each other very much so thanks for at at least!! I personally come here to learn, I couldn't give a sh*t about whether so and so likes so and so, bores me senseless. Protection training and referring to paragraphs in handbooks has NOTHING to do with opinions on check chains. Anyway neither does this now so I'm off. Er... ok. I too thought there were heaps of replies on the check chain topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbomb Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Just a suggestion. The security dog discussion is not what this thread was started about initally. I've just read pages and pages about training security dogs and really all i wanted to know were people's opinions on check collars, as i have recently been advised to use one. Maybe you guys could start your own thread? It's all been very informative but now i have no idea on wether a check chain is a worthwhile training tool or not. Which wasn't really the original question either but.... Hi Melbomb Check chains can be a useful tool in training. I use one on Diesel when doing obedience, mostly to get his attention when he loses focus as he can be easily distracted at times. I also use food and toy rewards for giving focus, including clicker training and food spitting. So using a check chain or any equipment is only one part of the equation, it is what you do with it and what other reinforcers you are using that is important. Ah okay. When you say other reinforcers what exactly do you mean and do you mean during the walk or when doing other training, in the home environment? We were told to use the collar (i should add here i haven't brought one as yet. I want to try with a martingale first), snap it when B was distracted, looking at whatever he wants, trying to pull to something interesting or straying from our side etc. Nothing else was mentioned about it other than to use it, no other commands etc. Although we were shown alot of leadership things that we should do around the house that we weren't doing and that we should have been. The trainer's words were that B is "off in la la land when he is on lead for a walk. Which i completely agree with He is 35 odd kgs and i worried that if he saw something enticing enough he could pull me over, although that behaviour has never reared it's ugly head. I'm able to control him to a degree with just a normal flat collar. Sorry i am a little bit dumb about this kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 K9: I don't use check chains or prescribe them on any dogs, I use Martingale collars on pups, purely from a safety stand point. Same here. I do use a check chain (snake type) in the show ring as I think it looks nice, nicer than a martingale of any type. I instruct at an ob club and people use chceck chains, I have no problems with that, but would preffer them to use martingales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Hi Melbomb Reinforcers are anything your dog likes, such as food, toys, pats and praise. Have you done any focus work with him? Does he have a command which means look at you/pay attention? This is a good idea to build up, first in a low distraction area (like your backyard) and then on walks and training. I bring reinforcers with me everywhere when I bring a dog - to training, on a walk, to my parent's house. This means I have the opportunity to reward good behaviour and to work on training at any time. Is this for loose lead walking or for heeling (walking next to you)? You may also want to try a martingale, does not tighten as much as a check chain but tightens more evenly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbomb Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Hi MelbombReinforcers are anything your dog likes, such as food, toys, pats and praise. Have you done any focus work with him? Does he have a command which means look at you/pay attention? This is a good idea to build up, first in a low distraction area (like your backyard) and then on walks and training. I bring reinforcers with me everywhere when I bring a dog - to training, on a walk, to my parent's house. This means I have the opportunity to reward good behaviour and to work on training at any time. Is this for loose lead walking or for heeling (walking next to you)? You may also want to try a martingale, does not tighten as much as a check chain but tightens more evenly. Yep we have "look" which he does straight away regardless of where we are but when there's something that to him is more interesting he chooses to ignore it. The trainer basicly said last night that positive reinforcement wouldn't work that well with B. But i might try doing as you say and taking something of high value with me when we walk. The main issue wasn't wether we wanted him walking loose lead or heel it was that he gets easily distracted when he see's other dogs, people or even motorbikes. Distracted to the point that i have to basicly pull him along the sidewalk. I think other than resorting straight to the check chain maybe we should do more focus work first and then see what happens? Would that be a better way to do it do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 What do you do to reward 'look' and what do you do when he ignores it? (and how did you train it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbomb Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Generally he get's a "yes" and a quick pat on the head, if were outside or somewhere i don't have food. In the mornings before i come to work i do a tiny bit of training, look being one of the commands and at that time he gets "yes" and a some kind of treat. Always extending the time. We were taught at our obedience club to hold a piece of treat at our nose, say look and when the dog did look we then gave them a reward. We progressed from there to them looking at you without the food at your nose and then onto look for an extended period of time. Always "yes" and treat after they had done it correctly. I have to admit he rarely doesn't do it unless we are walking and there is a distraction. And i will be honest i usually let it slide in the instance. Which i know i probably shouldn't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 The times where high value rewards come in very handy is when there are distractions, which is why I always have treats when out and about. If he knows he will only get a pat on the head when out, but a treat at home, he may not see it worthwhile to do it when out. Also your body language when you give the command makes a big difference. I know personally this is something I have to work on, as if I give out nervous vibes my dogs don't work as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Also, when he doesn't listen, is one time you could correct him, providing you are sure he knows what he is supposed to do. What I have been doing, and it is working well, even with my dog aggro dog, is clicker training attention, and even if he looks away to look at the dog/motorbike etc, when he looks back at you he gets a click/treat. This idea is from the book Click to Calm. In the end what I've found is they will look at distraction, then look back at you and not pull/bark/lunge at the distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbomb Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Ooh i really like the Click to Calm idea. That makes alot of sense to me and i think it would work well with B. Time to get the ol clicker out My body language and tone of voice was another thing i have to work on. Apparently when i tell him to do something it's more of a please than a command. Now that has been brought to my attention it will definitely be something i work on aswell. Kavik, thank you so much for your time and help. You have made alot of sense to me. I really didn't want to rush into using a check chain and i think there is definitely other things i can work on first. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) I dont think he is strapping the collar on at the first opportunity. HERE Ahhh. I've owned the collar for months. If I wasn't taking my time I'd have used it by now. I haven't. ETA: Only replying to this because I don't like people lying about me. I won't be posting on here about Montu at all anymore... Unless it's an issue completely unrelated to training. Another stupid comment: "N: What happens if LM is very subtly just a little off the mark. Something a professional trainer can see but he may not." One would hope the professional trainer I'll be seeing once a week would pick up on something I am doing wrong. After all, that's what he is paid for. EDIT: FFS. Steve DID NOT tell me not to discuss the e-collar on here. I don't recall Steve saying ANYTHING related to that. Steve is NOT my trainer for Montu. I saw him for the e-collar. I am not driving 28 hours on a weekly basis. If he was closer then he would be my trainer though Edited October 22, 2008 by Lord Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I dont think he is strapping the collar on at the first opportunity. HERE Ahhh. I've owned the collar for months. If I wasn't taking my time I'd have used it by now. I haven't. Good! Perhaps you should be aware of the way it came across. And Im all FOR the ecollars. I doubt you would have got the same responce if you said "I cant wait to get him to get the firs bite of a sleave." Good luck with your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Ohhh, sorry - misunderstanding then. I tend to do that - I don't put enough background information in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Ohhh, sorry - misunderstanding then. I tend to do that - I don't put enough background information in. No - you often don't Midol. But then I've come to understand this and if I'm not sure whether you REALLY meant as I might have taken something, I'll query you on it. People could do the same before jumping on you, IMO. And no ..... I'm not in love with Midol and have no reason to be sticking up for him, before anyone assumes so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 And no ..... I'm not in love with Midol and have no reason to be sticking up for him, before anyone assumes so. smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) And Midol posted he was 'warned' about discussing his training on here by a few people. I was one of them, and I stand by my suggestion to him. I think Midol is heading in the right direction with his pup and I am very pleased with the progress he is having with Montu’s training. I was the one who put Midol in contact with his dog’s breeder, I was also the person who put Midol in contact with an appropriate trainer in QLD to assist him with raising and training his dog for protection work. I have no issues with the way Midol has been training his pup so far, and I do not see why anyone else should be having any. Edited October 22, 2008 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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