Check Chains?

[Steve K9Pro]

N: no but he has purchased a working dog and wants 110% from the genetics by using recommended methods.

K9: Sure he does, but just to set the record straight, I am not handling that side of the work. I only instructed him on the e collar methods.

N: If you offer training in simply how to 'not cause issues' in that dog then I am a little concerned.

K9: Dont be, were having no problems here.

N: What happens if LM is very subtly just a little off the mark. Something a professional trainer can see but he may not.

K9: Exchange the e collar in this case for a clicker, check chain, prey item, all the same can happen, we try as any trainer does to avoid this happening with good information & consistent follow up.

N: When it comes down to security its better to be going under a good trainer on a very regular basis and sticking with their method even in between then purchasing a book.

K9: A I have tried to explain subtly man times, you would need to view the complete program, including his regular training with his regular local trainer before making assumptions.

N: so when do you start pressing the button.

K9: We make sure the fear period is over, clearly, which in mos dogs of both sexes is usually by 20 weeks, taking the safe line means 26 weeks.

N: It doesnt take weeks to condition a puppy to a collar.

K9: Some people feel, who have had many years of e collar experience, that the dog should wear the collar for up to three months before a stim is given, so it all various doesn't it.

N: Have strength in your convictions. If you use an e-collar on a pup under 6 months and recommend others to do so as well then just go 'yup I find it works immensely, increases focus and helps channel drive" etc etc.

K9: I would be happy to, but were talking about LM & what instruction he has been givem not what I do or have done.

[Erny]

when you get an 8 week old puppy with below workable drive you hand it back.

NB .... would you clarify something for me please - what do you class as "workable drive"? I mean, workable for "what"? Isn't the use of the word "workable" relative to the circumstance?

[Nekhbet]

hehe Erny have you walking into a litter of Malinois? have a look at You-tube at Malinois litters by 8 weeks many are already chasing rags and doing a hideously cute version of bitework

if I walked into a litter and waved a towel around, and the pup stared at me, gave a half-assed little go at it then gave up then no way. If it was madly chasing it, boldly still went after it and showed it really wanted it I'd probably aim for that one.

ah for this I mean things like bitework and schutzhund. You are correct what you look for in a puppy is situation specific, what is required in one discipline would be a complete no no in another.

K9: I would be happy to, but were talking about LM & what instruction he has been givem not what I do or have done.

That's what we were trying to ascertain but you keep skirting the issue. And Midol posted he was 'warned' about discussing his training on here by a few people. Oh well off to walk the doggies and get the paper

Edited October 22, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: or the dog has a medium level of drive or some previous learned experience may be adding complications. This is wha I mean by everyting isnt as simple as 123.

when you get an 8 week old puppy with below workable drive you hand it back. Why accept a dog that means more work and has a chance of not being usable at all. When we're talking about pups, yup it is 123. If you're pup has a bad experience at 8 weeks then you have the critical period to work it out, not withhold it from other people.

K9: You forgot to type, "in your opinion". Not all dogs, as I mentioned are going to be security dogs, not all my answers are aimed at them either.

I also mentioned the OP posters doesnt seem to have this in mind.

I'm not talking high value rewards. The person doesnt have to cuddle your dog within an inch of its life but completely withholding any form of interaction (no pats etc) to me is just trying to make the best out of a dog that may not be up to scratch.

K9: Again we would have t go through the complete program to understand the adjustments in socialisation values both positive & negative. Maybe next time in Vic we can catch up & I will explain what I do.

K9: You cant convince some people no mater what you do, snuggle or not...

so do we fulfill their expectations and just churn out more stereotypical animals? I would have thought thats doing the industry no favours.

K9: I don't think I have ever turned out a "stereotypical animal"

N: One of my dogs does not have nerves of steel. Thats why she wasn't bred from. But I spent MORE time and effort into training and came out with a workable solution that meant she can work and be a house dog.

K9: why didn't you hand her back? Isn't that what you said to do above? Like I said, its not 123.

In no way do I talk about the perfect dog because they pretty much do not exist. Every dog has its eccentricities and we as handlers have to work with and around them. There is always ways and means, the trick is to not just sick with your favourite method but what gets the result in the dog.

K9: Well if I used to do similar socialisation steps that you do now & have moved to something else, aren't I the one who isn't sticking with my "favourite method"?

I really feel, as others are mentioning it now, that taking this conversation an further in this thread isnt helpful.

Edited October 22, 2008 by K9 Force

[Nekhbet]

I didnt hand her back steve because she was due for euthanasia. SO call me a sucker I didnt want a 10 week old puppy to die.

K9: Well if I used to do similar socialisation steps that you do now & have moved to something else, arent I the one who isnt sticking with my "favourite method"?

You dont know how I train or socialise, although you seem to have some preconceived ideas about me, so your comment is invalid.

yes all your random, confusing issue skirting and subject changing is unproductive. As for the offer of a catch up, I've paid and watched your opinions once Steve that was enough for me.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Nekhbet

[MonElite]

N: so when do you start pressing the button.

K9: We make sure the fear period is over, clearly, which in mos dogs of both sexes is usually by 20 weeks, taking the safe line means 26 weeks.

This isnt what you said about the fear impact period HERE

• Period of fear 12-16 Weeks

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I would be happy to, but were talking about LM & what instruction he has been given not what I do or have done.

N: That's what we were trying to ascertain but you keep skirting the issue.

K9: Who is "we" & where did I skirt?

N: And Midol posted he was 'warned' about discussing his training on here by a few people.

K9: Perhaps a quick look around DOL will clear up whether I ask people not to discuss my e collar training methods or any training methds here, you will see many talking of them, no one is ever told don't talk about anything we do, so you need to think through your assumptions.

[Steve K9Pro]

N: I didnt hand her back steve because she was due for euthanasia. SO call me a sucker I didnt want a 10 week old puppy to die.

K9: I wouldn't hand her back either, thats why I didn't type

N: when you get an 8 week old puppy with below workable drive you hand it back.

K9: not so simple as 123...

N: You dont know how I train or socialise, although you seem to have some preconceived ideas about me, so your comment is invalid.

K9: just replied to what you wrote?

N: yes all your random, confusing issue skirting and subject changing is unproductive. As for the offer of a catch up, I've paid and watched your opinions once Steve that was enough for me.

K9: It wasn't going to be a chargeable event, wasn't.

Thanks for the compliments, I wont attack you in return though, I don't think its necessary, shame you do.

[Melbomb]

Just a suggestion. The security dog discussion is not what this thread was started about initally. I've just read pages and pages about training security dogs and really all i wanted to know were people's opinions on check collars, as i have recently been advised to use one. Maybe you guys could start your own thread?

It's all been very informative but now i have no idea on wether a check chain is a worthwhile training tool or not. Which wasn't really the original question either but....

[Steve K9Pro]

M: This isnt what you said about the fear impact period HERE

K9: I know, I wrote it there.

From that link..

The purpose of this calendar is to be used as a tool or guide for those raising pups to use to identify temperament changes in their pups during development.

&

later in that article...

It should be read as a guide only, your pup may fall perfectly into these age groups or slightly out of them, it may have severe fear periods or rank periods or quite mild ones, but from my experience, all pups go through each & every one of them at some time to some degree..

So given this I wrote:

We make sure the fear period is over, clearly, which in most dogs of both sexes is usually by 20 weeks, taking the safe line means 26 weeks

Hope this clears that up for you..

[Erny]

ah for this I mean things like bitework and schutzhund. You are correct what you look for in a puppy is situation specific, what is required in one discipline would be a complete no no in another.

Thanks NB. I thought you were speaking specifically to protection work, but given why this thread was generated, and how far we've come with it, I wasn't certain.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

A: I asked a friend who has a purely positive trained Border Collie about training a recall under high distraction with my Salukis. I have seen him call his BC off a mob of running roos and the BC's compliance was perfect.

K9: I think the key her is the "a", one of. How many dogs did he try this with & fail? how many dogs would he fail with vs succeed with.

I think that is a rather unsporting thing to say. I'm not going to make the person a football in this discussion, I'll only observe that all his dogs that I have met over the years have been very well behaved and he is an obedience judge.

I have noticed you are quick to highlight real or imagined limitations of those who don't hold your views or use your methodologies: asking me if I don't trust myself elsewhere in the thread for example, and setting little tests using your own criteria to assess the answers, etc. At the same time you claim a strong success record for yourself. That looks like sales pitch, not discussion in good faith.

I'm not competition for you, in fact, as a volunteer obedience instructor I'm a potential referrer for dogs that have issues beyond those that can be managed in a standard class. Business must be good if you can afford to alienate us by talking down to us.

[MonElite]

It should be read as a guide only, your pup may fall perfectly into these age groups or slightly out of them, it may have severe fear periods or rank periods or quite mild ones, but from my experience, all pups go through each & every one of them at some time to some degree..

10 weeks is slightly? OK....

So given this I wrote:

We make sure the fear period is over, clearly, which in most dogs of both sexes is usually by 20 weeks, taking the safe line means 26 weeks

Hope this clears that up for you..

As a suggestion, perhaps you could add further explanation to the thread in Puppy section for everyone to benefit.

[Steve K9Pro]

A: I think that is a rather unsporting thing to say. I'm not going to make the person a football in this discussion, I'll only observe that all his dogs that I have met over the years have been very well behaved and he is an obedience judge.

K9: Sorry I wasn't try in to be supporting or non supporting, rather pointing out that when you talk about dogs in the hundreds from different breeds temperaments, there is no hard & fast rule that works with all of them equally. Maybe I should have said it hat way.

A: I have noticed you are quick to highlight real or imagined limitations of those who don't hold your views or use your methodologies:

K9: Ok?

A: asking me if I don't trust myself elsewhere in the thread for example

K9: The topics of using different tools has come up man times, it is my belief that the abuse is not in the tool but in the user, so if user says that they wouldnt use a tool, I wnder if it is because they feel they mught be included to miss use it, thats why I asked a question rather than made a statement.

A: and setting little tests using your own criteria to assess the answers, etc.

K9: What criteria should I use, dont you use yours?

A: At the same time you claim a strong success record for yourself. That looks like sales pitch, not discussion in good faith.

K9: I guess it would be if I were the only one saying it.

A: I'm not competition for you, in fact, as a volunteer obedience instructor I'm a potential referrer for dogs that have issues beyond those that can be managed in a standard class. Business must be good if you can afford to alienate us by talking down to us.

K9: I am not here promoting anything, I simply post on here beacause I want to. I dont need you refer dogs to me, if you did they would get the best advice & care I believe in & I believe that would be helpful to your clients/students.

I didnt talk down to you in my opinion, just like Erny said about corrections, I guess it is about how they are perceived by the correctee rather than the corrector. If you feel I spoke to you out of line, for that I apologise. Jus participating in the discussion.

I dont think you can get a true picture of how I work with clients & or their dogs from a forum.

Edited October 22, 2008 by K9 Force

[MonElite]

As for the offer of a catch up, I've paid and watched your opinions once Steve that was enough for me.

K9: It wasn't going to be a chargeable event, wasn't.

Thanks for the compliments, I wont attack you in return though, I don't think its necessary, shame you do.

I dont think that NB was attacking, maybe you are a bit paranoid.

I went to a seminar by Ian Dunbar (and paid) and wouldnt go back. Seen it once and that was enough for me. Is he a bad trainer? NO he isnt!

He is very successfull as a trainer and he markets himself well.

Good for him!

[Kavik]

Just a suggestion. The security dog discussion is not what this thread was started about initally. I've just read pages and pages about training security dogs and really all i wanted to know were people's opinions on check collars, as i have recently been advised to use one. Maybe you guys could start your own thread?

It's all been very informative but now i have no idea on wether a check chain is a worthwhile training tool or not. Which wasn't really the original question either but....

Hi Melbomb

Check chains can be a useful tool in training. I use one on Diesel when doing obedience, mostly to get his attention when he loses focus as he can be easily distracted at times. I also use food and toy rewards for giving focus, including clicker training and food spitting. So using a check chain or any equipment is only one part of the equation, it is what you do with it and what other reinforcers you are using that is important.

[Steve K9Pro]

M: It should be read as a guide only, your pup may fall perfectly into these age groups or slightly out of them, it may have severe fear periods or rank periods or quite mild ones, but from my experience, all pups go through each & every one of them at some time to some degree..

10 weeks is slightly? OK....

K9: working with dogs temperaments is not done on a slide rule, many factors can influence these development periods, in many cases they are all over by 18 weeks, which in the dogs life span is slight. If the threshold movement is only small, the novice may not be aware of the start & or the end, so when going to the styles of training that may involve corrections, 20 weeks is usually a good time to start if required, that's the rule of thumb I use.

Hopefully, the owner would have set in place good training measures that will remove the need for corrections, but if they haven, having a safety margin doesnt hurt.

M: As a suggestion, perhaps you could add further explanation to the thread in Puppy section for everyone to benefit.

K9: I will take that on board, but I think it is explained clear enough & if anyone is considering taking on some advanced training measures, they should of course have a professional on hand.

That article was added to help people.

[Steve K9Pro]

M: I dont think that NB was attacking, maybe you are a bit paranoid.

I went to a seminar by Ian Dunbar (and paid) and wouldnt go back. Seen it once and that was enough for me. Is he a bad trainer? NO he isnt!

He is very successfull as a trainer and he markets himself well.

Good for him!

K9: Thanks for your comments, as I have said many times words to the affect "its not what is said, but what is heard" in this case, read.

Maybe I was wrong? Only NB knows.

[Quickasyoucan]

Nice to see all the members of the dog training fraternity banding together to assist someone with a genuine question - NOT

Obviously there are some personal grievances here that need to be aired. Isn't that what PM is for or a face to face chat? You are all big enough and ugly enough daresay not to hide behind a thread.

AND DON'T ANYONE DARE SAY THEY WEREN'T GETTING PERSONAL

We get it, some of you don't have a great deal of respect for the other people's methods. That's life.

Anyway I expect the OP is this very minute booking his Aussie Bulldog in for Protection Training

Check chain opinions anyone????

Here's mine. We had welsh springer spaniels as kids, they pulled like a train check chain or not. All I remember from my youth is the constant hoarse breathing. Wrongly used I am sure, but we were kids and no one told us any better.

Humane tool in the right hands - great.

Humane tool in the wrong hands - whatever it be flat collar, prong, check chain, whatever, dangerous.

[MonElite]

That article was added to help people.

Dont know for sure but I would think that many here would hope that whatever you write is to HELP people.