Check Chains?

[MonElite]

M: Good training is good training no matter what the method is.

K9: Nice saying wonder where you heard that... wish I had thought of it oops maybe I did.

Not exactly sure where I but maybe I've have heard it on a Leerburg video.

K9: perhaps you should read my reply again.

I did.

On the same token one could write

Having stairs in your home would run more risk of injuring these immature bones than wearing an e collar...?

What I think you tried to do is tell NB with some clever wording that she is wrong.

Yes wearing an ecollar runs less risks than doing prey work, but we arent talking about just wearing the collar, but using it during training.

Hence I conclude your point has no practical application in this discussion and is irrelevant.

K9 LM had just stated he wanted his dog out of fear period so he could whack an e-collar on it. Thats why I asked what he was using it for - the 'wait till out of fear period' comment made me wonder.

Ditto.

Just want to say - I understood perfectly what you tried to say in all your posts.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Monelite

[Nekhbet]

only had one coffee today ... brains going *put put put*

[Steve K9Pro]

M: On the same token one could write

Having stairs in your home would run more risk of injuring these immature bones than wearing an e collar...?

K9: yes exactly, I am glad you see my point.

If one is recommending drive training over e collar work, it should not be anything to do with less impact on young bones. Didn't make sense to me.

M: What I think you tried to do is tell NB with some clever wording that she is wrong.

K9: If I wanted to say someone is wrong I have no hesitation doing so, so your wrong.

M: Yes wearing an ecollar runs less risks than doing prey work, but we arent talking about just wearing the collar, but using it during training.

K9: I read that Nekhbet was warning LM off using the e collar, & one of the points in that thread is regarding young hips & bones.

M: Hence I conclude your point has no practical application in this discussion and is irrelevant.

K9: Well if was writing that reply to you, then that would be of concern.

[Steve K9Pro]

N: K9 LM had just stated he wanted his dog out of fear period so he could whack an e-collar on it. Thats why I asked what he was using it for - the 'wait till out of fear period' comment made me wonder.

K9: Sorry I didn't see where you were wondering, you actually typed it was ridiculous?

N: As for the bones and growth - a security dog requires training in bitework does it not? A fairly physical activity for a dog especially a growing one. If you train for 12-14 months and say have it out working at 18 months you will have had to have spent quite some months having the dog chasing, grabbing sleeves, pulling against leash/tether during agitation etc.

K9: True, but I didn't make the comment about a young dogs hips & bones you did?

N: Being surprised that handler enthusiasm directly impacts on the dog means the handler needs to learn a little more about the training as a whole before launching straight into e-collar use.

K9: Are you saying that because a handler doesn know absoluetly everything about dfog traning they cant start? or that they cant learn anyting new along the way?

I also dodn think LM gave ou a date on when he learned when he was surprised by the effect praise had on training, could have been yestderdsay or three years ago?

N: I would think that part of your system steve involves motivation and praise not just negative reinforcement by removing a the 'correct stimulus for that dog' as LM stated.

K9: Of course it does, LM has a 50 page training guide that I have written on e collar use & has partaken in a 2 hour theory & practical lesson, I don think he was trying to type a blow by blow description of wha he has learned in this thread.

N: where did I directly state I have an issue with using an e-collar.

K9: I didnt say you have a problem with the tool, but you did advise LM to go another way & stated reasons why. I dont think those reasons are a concern give his complete training program.

N: I've been to your seminar Steve and I have seen how you train as well.

K9: yep I remember you & your dogs there? You should know that motivaton is the cornerstone to all my training programs.

N: Oh by the way I have been a K9 guard before and worked with other K9s. I've seen what people consider 'trained' as well so I am simply giving LM the idea there are two sides to the coin in the security world.

K9: There are peobably 20 sides lol, few of them any good, but I dont think LM is a heavy handed meathead who will do wrong by his dog.

One has to assess the client in terms of intelligence when selecting a program or a tool, I personally found him to be well within his intelligence to complete hos work, he also had someone wit him who also has some good understanding & skills from one of my other courses.

I dont feel concerend at all about his dogs well being.

[MonElite]

K9: I read that Nekhbet was warning LM off using the e collar,

Perhaps she read the manufacturers recommendations of not using it on dogs less than 6 months old.

Midols puppy is what? 3 months, he says he cant wait for the fear impact to be over which ends at roughly 16 weeks?

I cant see anything wrong with Nekhbets recomendation to build the bond, build drive etc rather than strapping the ecollar on the dog at the first opportunity.

Having said that, maybe but only maybe, Midol has hd the second fear impact period in mind and he wont use the collar till the dog is over 12 months old.

Good luck Midol, you seem to be doing right things, but Im with NB, dont rush.

[Quickasyoucan]

My partner & I recently purchased our first puppy (an Australian Bulldog) so being our first dog we thought we'd send him to a local dog trainer. The trainer's dogs are exceptionally obedient & as would be expected come on one vocal comand or hand movement. We've been training him with a collar though have used a check chain on him today & have had different opinions on this already.

From what I gather if it's not used with too much force (how much is too much with a puppy???) then they can be effective though from what I know a lot of vets don't recommend them.

What are some of the opinions here on them & is there a risk that this could cause injuries to my lil mate down the track. He's like our first child & we'd hate to have any problems with him in the future due to my inexperience & lack of knowledge on this subject....That's why I've asked here

I've read this thread with interest, lots of info in here about different things.

However, going back to the OP's original question, they are obviously committed to giving their pup the best start in life on a training basis and they have an opportunity to teach good habits to a young pup rather than bad and are obviously keen to do so. As someone already said some of us get our dogs when they have already acquired a couple of bad habits and need tools to assist us in putting them back on the right track in as efficient and thoughtful way as possible.

I'd be interested to know if there have been any proven scientific studies about the effects of the use of check chains? Though I am sure this has been raised before so links to a thread would suffice.

Similarly for halti's or headcollars?

I think a link to any threads about lead training (positive, compulsion etc - sorry not up on terminology) might be good too.

All to get the rounded picture. :D

PS As a newcomer to training my dog (yes I'm a slow learner cos I've muddled along already with him for 4 years and been lucky he's turned out pretty much alright ) it is hard when you are bombarded with different opinions, things can be confusing. One person will tell you one thing, one person will tell you another and all will swear it is the right answer.

For me, I am going to use what works for ME and MY dog. If my dog ever seemed stressed or distressed by any method of training, prong, check chain, halti, time-out whatever, I just wouldn't do it (no I haven't tried them all!). But I don't have a problem with using correction, in fact I just don't understand how you could teach boundaries or limitations in any other way (even if you don't call it a correction it is still a negative reinforcement in some way shape or form - semantics as far as I am concerned). All creatures surely learn through experience (ourselves included) good and bad and since we live in a world with limitations there has to be some way of reinforcing them.

[Nekhbet]

K9: I read that Nekhbet was warning LM off using the e collar, & one of the points in that thread is regarding young hips & bones.

OK before I step off this merry-go-round, if you read what I actually wrote - my point was that the basic fundamental of training a working dog (the impact of handler energy/praise on the dog) was such a suprise to LM. This is a fairly basic concept that should be down pat BEFORE the use of an e-collar. All I stated was maybe his foundations of training a working dog need to bit a bit stronger before using equipment. Understanding the end result and process as a whole is required before you do the individual parts.

I also commented on bones. So you do no bitework with your sec dogs? They just flounce around learning what exactly in the 12-18 months of training? Thats where my comment was directed.

It worries me you consider a manual and two hours a "complete training program" actually especially on a puppy. Once again only my opinion Steve.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Steve K9Pro]

M: Perhaps she read the manufacturers recommendations of not using it on dogs less than 6 months old.

K9: yes I must give that a try

M: Midols puppy is what? 3 months, he says he cant wait for the fear impact to be over which ends at roughly 16 weeks?

K9: Again as you havent read the complete training program, you are making assumptions that aren't correct.

M: I cant see anything wrong with Nekhbets recommendation to build the bond, build drive etc rather than strapping the ecollar on the dog at the first opportunity.

K9: Neither can I? cant see where I did? Also LM has owned his collar for probably three months, so I dont think he is strapping the collar on at the first opportunity.

M: Having said that, maybe but only maybe, Midol has hd the second fear impact period in mind and he wont use the collar till the dog is over 12 months old.

K9: so your advice is to wait until after fear period two? Better consult the e collar manufacturers then, they say six months you said?

Anyway this is way off topic & I am sure unhelpful to the OP.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

A: I agree, we own "difficult breeds" and do not use prongs or train with check chains.

K9: I have never met a "difficult breed" in all my life...

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Can you elaborate?

[Nekhbet]

so steve are you telling me you use e-collars on pups 3-6 months of age?

[Steve K9Pro]

N: As for the workability if being suspicious and overly paranoid of people are not due to lack of interaction with them as a pup but nerves then why do people not allow people to touch their working pup?

K9: a long time ago, there was an idea (a bad one) that if you didnt let your dog get to know anyone, it was a good gaurd dog.

We know better now & what they were doing was playing on the nerves / defence drive of an unsocialised / frightened dog.

These days good programs socialise the dog but don't let i aquire a high value for strangers, so that the dog is socialised, knows what a stranger is, but doest hold out any value for them.

This means there is no fear, defence or suspcion of strangers so it doesnt help or hurt protection work but gives better foucs on the handler often through drive which helps with reliability.

Does hat make sense?

N: I dont see why letting people have a quick pat on the owners terms is a bad thing.

K9: Perhaps try it the other way & see whith your next pup?

N: My malinois climbs into people's laps for a cuddle but damned if you're getting into my house if i'm not home. So did I make a mistake?

K9: If your happy with the results then there is no mistake, as I said, after having tried this both ways, with many, many dogs, I feel what I do now gives me the best results.

N: I like having guests and I love the fact she can also be a dog in her down time. Fairs fair, if a guard can head down to the pub on a friday night I think the dog has every right to get the odd belly scratch. Doesnt mean she neglects her duties and flies at the nearest group of people for cuddles.

K9: It may not happen your way, it wont even be thought about mine. People come to my place, they have no issies with my dogs running around.

Consider it, maybe next puppy.

N: My comments about letting the dog dictate the pace are just that. I understand people purchase an animal with the express purpose of working that - I would be pissed too if I paid X dollars and it took ages to train up the dog. BUT my comment was directed that some people can put unrealistic expectations on an animal and to get to the outcome use methods that are slightly unsavory. Yes 2-3 years would be a tad long but at the same time I wouldnt have confidence going out into the field with a dog under 18 months of age as I would worry about his long term physical, and maybe to a degree his mental health as well. Just my opinion Steve thats all it is, if I'm wrong ignore me.

K9: Everyone is welcome to their opinion Julie, this type of work can be quite in depth so it takes questions & answers before people can get a feel for what the other is saying, & a small difference can make such a large one in the dog, the discussion is worth having.

No one is wrong or right in such that there are more righter ways sometimes.

[Nekhbet]

This means there is no fear, defence or suspcion of strangers so it doesnt help or hurt protection work but gives better foucs on the handler often through drive which helps with reliability.

I believe focus comes down to training and drive more then witholding a degree of interaction with other people. If you're dog cannot hold focus because there are people about then the training method has to be looked at. If the dog has the drive to work and you have trained it, it will work even if you strap a bitch in heat under its nose. If withholding certain things within a dogs life, especially one that probably will live in a residential area or family home not a security kennel, then I think there is an element of importance of having a dog meet people as a puppy. Bitework has a bad enough reputation as it is, why not prove that a dog can be both a pathetic snugglebum as well as a good working dog as in days of yore?

[MonElite]

K9: yes I must give that a try

I shall go home and see YOUR book to see if there is a reference about age there too. My appologies if there isnt.

K9: Again as you havent read the complete training program, you are making assumptions that aren't correct.

Thats right, I got your book and a collar, you found a working level on my dog and off I went on my own.

I dont think he is strapping the collar on at the first opportunity.

HERE

K9: so your advice is to wait until after fear period two?

??? I dont give any advice about use of the ecollar. You do.

[Steve K9Pro]

N: K before I step off this merry-go-round, if you read what I actually wrote - my point was that the basic fundamental of training a working dog (the impact of handler energy/praise on the dog) was such a suprise to LM. This is a fairly basic concept that should be down pat BEFORE the use of an e-collar.

K9: If you use the e collar as a high level correction tool then that's right, high level corrections through the use of any tool, remote collar, check chain prong etc in young dogs especially before bonds are made can be hazardous. But if its a low level communication tool then there are benefits to using one early, same as using a clicker to shape behaviours/movements & aid communicaton.

N: All I stated was maybe his foundations of training a working dog need to bit a bit stronger before using equipment. Understanding the end result and process as a whole is required before you do the individual parts.

K9: My understanding is that LM is doing that.

N: I also commented on bones. So you do no bitework with your sec dogs? They just flounce around learning what exactly in the 12-18 months of training? Thats where my comment was directed.

K9: yes of course, we do little else really, but I was commenting that I wasnt concerned about the skeletal impact, not that I was.

N: It worries me you consider a manual and two hours a "complete training program" actually especially on a puppy.

K9: I guess it depends how much you call complete, man people have done it this way I were not having an problems at all.

He sisnt going to be a pro trainer running around with the e collar attaching it to various dogs, only how to implement the collar without causing issues.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Just butting in here, sorry. Anita, I'm unsure why you mention sighthounds so often? The best, most easily trained, perfect on lead dogs I've ever had were my wolfhounds. Also, as far as 'sinbinning' goes, I can guarantee they would have been extremely distressed if ever in that situation, I don't see why cockers would be more so???( OT) can't discuss training collars and methods as I'm very ignorant about it all.

Only because we have a house full of Afghans and Salukis and I'm trying to make it clear where my experience lies. I have never trained a Wolfhound, so I will withdraw from discussing Sighthounds as a group. Thanks for picking me up on it

As to the Cocker comparison, I phrased it "I'm guessing" rather than delivering it as a statement of fact. I was exploring an idea based on how people focussed most Cockers I've met have been. If Cocker people tell me that sinbinning them doesn't bother them at all, I'd drop the idea like it's hot!

[Steve K9Pro]

A: K9: I have never met a "difficult breed" in all my life...

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Can you elaborate?

K9: sure & briefly.

I don't think all dogs in a breed are the same, so labelling a breed difficult is a bit wide spread to me.

I have been brought lost of dogs from so called difficult breeds, once assessed for what drives them I had no problems training them.

N: so steve are you telling me you use e-collars on pups 3-6 months of age?

K9: f the dog is going to be trained with an e collar, the collar goes on for conditioning purposes, (get used to the box & collar on its neck) somewhere around 20 weeks, no button pressing necessary at this stage.

[Nekhbet]

He sisnt going to be a pro trainer running around with the e collar attaching it to various dogs, only how to implement the collar without causing issues.

no but he has purchased a working dog and wants 110% from the genetics by using recommended methods. If you offer training in simply how to 'not cause issues' in that dog then I am a little concerned. Dogs change, their behavior changes as they mature and how we shape them. What happens if LM is very subtly just a little off the mark. Something a professional trainer can see but he may not. When it comes down to security its better to be going under a good trainer on a very regular basis and sticking with their method even in between then purchasing a book. You should know if you have trained that dogs go through their peaks and troughs and its not something a book but experience and problem solving skills will help.

K9: yes of course, we do little else really, but I was commenting that I wasnt concerned about the skeletal impact, not that I was.

OK my original post was that I was. You brought it up a lot so I explained WHY I initially did mention it. Its a part of the training and yes, something to consider when you are training a growing large breed.

K9: f the dog is going to be trained with an e collar, the collar goes on for conditioning purposes, (get used to the box & collar on its neck) somewhere around 20 weeks, no button pressing necessary at this stage.

so when do you start pressing the button. It doesnt take weeks to condition a puppy to a collar. Have strength in your convictions. If you use an e-collar on a pup under 6 months and recommend others to do so as well then just go 'yup I find it works immensely, increases focus and helps channel drive" etc etc.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Steve K9Pro]

N: I believe focus comes down to training and drive more then witholding a degree of interaction with other people. If you're dog cannot hold focus because there are people about then the training method has to be looked at.

K9: or the dog has a medium level of drive or some previous learned experience may be adding complications. This is wha I mean by everyting isnt as simple as 123.

N: If the dog has the drive to work and you have trained it, it will work even if you strap a bitch in heat under its nose.

K9: my comments are more designed around many different dogs dogs many different jobs, if were want to restrict the answers to dogs with nerves of steel & drives through the roof then yeah a lot of steps can be missed, but I work with more than dogs made of gold.

N: If withholding certain things within a dogs life, especially one that probably will live in a residential area or family home not a security kennel, then I think there is an element of importance of having a dog meet people as a puppy.

K9: have a read more carefully of what I have written, the difference is in the details, the dgs do meet people, & other dogs & many other distractions, they just arent set up to get high value rewards from them.

N: Bitework has a bad enough reputation as it is, why not prove that a dog can be both a pathetic snugglebum as well as a good working dog as in days of yore?

K9: You cant convince some people no mater what you do, snuggle or not...

[Quickasyoucan]

Guys,

The OP owns an "Aussie bulldog" I believe, so I don't they have protection training in mind (pictures the Aussie Bulldog doing bitework ).

I know you both have lots of knowledge about lots of canine things. Can you put that brainpower towards helping us "knowledgeless" folks out in regards to the original question???

ETA: Not that it's not interesting and enlightening, but maybe for a separate thread?

Edited October 22, 2008 by Quickasyoucan

[Nekhbet]

K9: or the dog has a medium level of drive or some previous learned experience may be adding complications. This is wha I mean by everyting isnt as simple as 123.

when you get an 8 week old puppy with below workable drive you hand it back. Why accept a dog that means more work and has a chance of not being usable at all. When we're talking about pups, yup it is 123. If you're pup has a bad experience at 8 weeks then you have the critical period to work it out, not withhold it from other people.

I'm not talking high value rewards. The person doesnt have to cuddle your dog within an inch of its life but completely withholding any form of interaction (no pats etc) to me is just trying to make the best out of a dog that may not be up to scratch.

K9: You cant convince some people no mater what you do, snuggle or not...

so do we fulfill their expectations and just churn out more stereotypical animals? I would have thought thats doing the industry no favours.

One of my dogs does not have nerves of steel. Thats why she wasnt bred from. But I spent MORE time and effort into training and came out with a workable solution that meant she can work and be a house dog. In no way do I talk about the perfect dog because they pretty much do not exist. Every dog has its eccentricities and we as handlers have to work with and around them. There is always ways and means, the trick is to not just sick with your favourite method but what gets the result in the dog.