Check Chains?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Isn't a correction in the perception? I mean, if you're out in the sun, it gets too hot so you go inside. Do you feel you were punished/corrected by the sun? Or do you feel rewarded because when you went inside it was cool so you felt better? The latter example being of course the negative reinforcement component.

To "correct" means to alter or stop a behaviour doesn't it? Given the (low) stimulation in the process of e-collar -R training is given before any behaviour, how is that a correction? It is a fine line I agree, when you first look at it. But the way I see it, it is quite a bit different.

Life is full of physically and mentally unpleasant experiences. If I am going to add one to my dog's life, even if I am adding it to take it away, I am going to think carefully about it and there needs to be an appropriate benefit attached for the dog/s.

Certain training methods work because they have a component that is unpleasant to the dog - whether it's setting up a negative reinforcement, or it's an aversive, or a correction or a time out. All I have suggested is that we acknowledge it when we do something that is unpleasant to the dog.

Perhaps it's just me and my martial arts woo woo, but the reason I bang on about this is because if we deliver an unpleasant experience to another sentient being we have to take care for the effect on ourselves. Plenty of people are reinforced by delivering punishment and correction - just watch any show ring or obedience class (whether positive or not). That is not good for the dogs.

[Erny]

I completely agree with you that we should know and understand what we are doing, when, why and what effect (or affect) it is having on our dogs. After all, that is what training ANYTHING is about and includes not only 'punishers' but also 'rewards'.

Having acknowledged that, I'm not sure what your stance is or should I say, what point your trying to make (save for the be aware of what we do when we interact with our dogs in any way). Sorry if I'm missing that and that it should be obvious to me.

I've been involved in numerous discussions pertaining to a variety of dog training tools. I find it common for people to assume that because some people recognise the benefits of a certain style of training tool (and let's face it, they are all 'punishers' in one shape or form) and discuss it, an assumption is carried that they rely on the 'punisher' effect without thought to administration of 'reward'. The further assumption is that people 'enjoy' delivering a punishment. That's often not the case either. And in general those same people who have at the very least half the knowledge that makes them capable of entering a discussion about it are also already aware of the importance and effect of combining it with reward. But it is an assumption that is often asserted and carried over by the unsupported opinion of others.

Are you saying Anita that in the obedience classes you watch the handlers are enjoying giving the correction to their dogs ..... ?

Edited October 21, 2008 by Erny

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I've been involved in numerous discussions pertaining to a variety of dog training tools. I find it common for people to assume that because some people recognise the benefits of a certain style of training tool (and let's face it, they are all 'punishers' in one shape or form) and discuss it, an assumption is carried that they rely on the 'punisher' effect without thought to administration of 'reward'. The further assumption is that people 'enjoy' delivering a punishment. That's often not the case either. And in general those same people who have at the very least half the knowledge that makes them capable of entering a discussion about it are also already aware of the importance and effect of combining it with reward. But it is an assumption that is often asserted and carried over by the unsupported opinion of others.

I agree with you. However, the other side of it is that I also see people softening the idea that they are deliverers of things their dogs don't like. The way some people talk about haltis and ecollars you'd think they deliver a massage. I'm not saying there is never ever any cause to use one, I am saying let's be honest that it's not pleasant for the dog and if there is a way to do it on a flat collar, let's try that first.

Are you saying Anita that in the obedience classes you watch the handlers are enjoying giving the correction to their dogs ..... ?

No. Something can be reinforcing without being about obvious enjoyment. A lot of people do it because it calms their nerves and/or gives them the illusion that they are in control. Or it gives them a way to relieve frustration and anger, which is also reinforcing. Like people who reef dogs when they're not complying - no matter what kind of collar they are on or what kind of class they are in. And like the guy I saw who slapped his Doberman on the face when the judge didn't give it Challenge. The bitch had been mucking up in the class judging line up, but by the Challenge line up she was behaving. The slap could only have been about relieving his frustration, because what it achieved in dog training terms was to tell her not to stand still after all.

Another example - I saw someone repeatedly checking a dog ringside at a show recently. It didn't understand that she wanted it to stand, and it kept sitting which I assume was it's default behaviour to offer. She kept checking it, it kept sitting and getting more and more distressed. Eventually I had to turn and walk away rather than keep watching.

My take on it that it was in front of people, and in a nervous pre-ring situation. In that situation many handlers are more likely to keep reinforcing their ego than stop and think "right, this isn't working, let's try something else". I know because I've kept pushing when it would have been obvious to an observer that I was being unfair, and I've kicked myself hard afterwards. In the example I mention checking the dog was not achieving anything in terms of desired results, so it must have been achieving something for the handler otherwise why would they keep doing it? That's what I'm talking about, and if I can make one person stop and think before doing that kind of thing I'll be happy - I think that's the point I'm trying to make.

[Steve K9Pro]

T: Sorry to burst your bubble but they (prong collars) are merely a temporary control, one that is no different to a halti or gentle leader, the dog immediately starts pulling as soon as the prong or whatever is taken off.......what has the dog learned about not pulling? Uhh nothing!

K9: When the prong collar is fitted to the dog & the dog is just allowed to self correct then yes, when the collar is taken off it will pull again, but that would be the fault of the trainer. This will happen with any correction tool but it is more likely to occur with tools such as the halti or GL as they are more difficult to use in a training method.

When the prong collar is used correctly the dog will learn to walk with no collar or leash on, next to the handler, fast.

Some people who dream of the perfect world also forget that even when a dog has become collar smart to the prong collar & wont pull when wearing ine but will pull when one is not fitted, this is a drastic improvement over the dog that was pulling like a seatm train regardless of what the handler did before the prong collar...

T: I dont deny there are dogs out there who will walk properly without a check chain if they have been trained with one, but ive never seen one walk as good as it did with one on then with one off,

K9: Does that mean they dont exist? I have never seen air but breathe it daily.

G: It's great to see a couple of 'experienced' dog handlers here giving opinions on the matter & from what I can gather my pup (who's 10 weeks) is probably still too young to have a check chain on him. In saying this though, he has already learnt to sit aswell as walking beside me on a lead & comes when called on a lead. I'm happy with progress so far & look forward to my little mate growing up to be my best mate, he's a top little dog & I'd hate to have him grow up into a nuisance because I didn't nip bad habits in the butt earlier on which is why I had been told to speak to a dog handler early in the piece

K9: The most desired direction is to teach your pup to walk with you, not pull you. This is done with a motivator & consistency.

T: Mmm well is fostering several dogs of varying breeds and behaviours, including a large dog that pulled like a frieght train, as well as my own dog who drove alot of people to give up on him good enough for me to comment on the use of check chains?

K9: Not if in those occasions you used them incorrectly.

A: I agree, we own "difficult breeds" and do not use prongs or train with check chains.

K9: I have never met a "difficult breed" in all my life...

[Steve K9Pro]

N: A lot of people in security are in a desperate hurry to have the working dog down pat ASAP. If it takes 2-3 years so be it.

K9: 3 years to get a security do ready to work? That would be a very expensive dog with a short lived career...lol.

N: ETA If you are so suprised how handler praise affects a dogs enthusiasm then put down the E-collar and go learn some more before you push the dogs drive into the ground.

K9: good e collar methods don't diminish drive...

N: His hips and bones are still developing at 12 months of age another reason to do things slowly. As I said a dog can carry on like a porkchop and inspire awe at its tenacity but is it because the dog is a full hard defense dog or has it been pushed into showing this reaction when its crapping itself and has a chance of redirection because there's an element of instability?

K9: I think your making a lot of assumptions here. Here is what I mean...

Your telling him not to use an e collar but use drive, stating one of the reasons are that

N: His hips and bones are still developing at 12 months of age another reason to do things slowly.

K9: Training in prey drive would run more risk of injuring these immature bones than wearing an e collar...?

N: As I said a dog can carry on like a porkchop and inspire awe at its tenacity but is it because the dog is a full hard defense dog or has it been pushed into showing this reaction when its crapping itself and has a chance of redirection because there's an element of instability?

K9: This is true, but they occur not by the use of a tool but the actions of the handler & decoy. Just seems another person is jumping on the tool when the abuse is always in the user, not the tool...

If you haven't gone through the training program that LM has, how can you be critical of it just because he owns a tool or two? I am sure you own the same tools & would be branded by some an abuser because you own the tool, but that doesnt make it true, does it?

[MonElite]

As it happens, she did get praise, but it wasn't near good enough to override the unpleasantness of checking. As I said, a professional did tell me how to do it, but this was in the days when you had to have a check chain to enrol in an obedience class. The professional had one method and one method only. It was pretty bad for me and my dog.

So you over corrected and under rewarded your dog.

I wont comment on the person that tought you, but perhaps something got lost in the translation of what the person said and what you thought they said.

[Steve K9Pro]

A: I asked a friend who has a purely positive trained Border Collie about training a recall under high distraction with my Salukis. I have seen him call his BC off a mob of running roos and the BC's compliance was perfect.

K9: I think the key her is the "a", one of. How many dogs did he try this with & fail? how many dogs would he fail with vs succeed with.

We have accomplished some awesome success with my Traiing in drive programs, but at the end of the day, if the dog has learned drive success before training in drive starts, if the dog has low drive, you may need a corrective measure, that is the reality.

A: In short, it's possible to train a better recall under heavy distraction than I have using both purely positive or correction based methods and tools, but for various reasons I'm not going to do it. If I wanted a dog that didn't turn cloth eared in the presence of a hare, I would have picked a different breed.

K9: Isn't the above yo telling me what can be done, but your telling it from the persons point of view that hasn't done it? lol...

I can breathe under water, but, for various reasons, one of them being I would die, I choose not to.

[Dory the Doted One]

Okay...I can see why Security types would be focussed on if a dog was ready at 3 years it would be a short career with an expensive dog.

I think it's sad that you would put your ultimate safety down to the dollars of what the dog cost compared to longevity in the field. What happens if the dog gets killed in action at 5 yrs of age? Do you sit and whinge about an expensive tool now lost? Or do you go...Wow...that dog was worth the wait and worth the dollars because he saved my life.

The other thing I think is if a dog is over the hill at 8 yrs in the field...then you need to find yourselves some better breeding material. Or take better care of the dog. (Not suggesting they aren't being looked after...after they cost you so much to get to working stage.)

Perhaps I'm too soft...too naive...whatever.......But surely there are some things that we shouldn't quibble about time, effort and ultimate cost of. A good dog is a good dog...and a safe dog...well...Hell...so what if he takes a little longer to work the ground work out. IF he is going to be a stayer in the end...a strong, solid, stayer...he is worth the wait. May life is worth that.

[Steve K9Pro]

N: I'm the weirdo I find nothing wrong with letting my pup/dogs be patted by other people and be friendly.

K9: Not sure how that makes you weird? It makes you just like most pet owners.

N: Has not decreased their workability in fact it has improved it since they see everyone as neutral and nothing to worry about.

K9: Thats something that no one can say, you cant run two time lines with the same dog which means you cant say what difference there would be if you did someting else.

N: Conversely I dont have a super suspicious dog either which is nice when you go into the CBD or on public transport.

K9: That would be the actions of a dog with weak nerves, one that had poor learned experiences or one that had no socialisation. Nothing to do with whether they are patted or not.

C: Have you seen Leslie Nelson?? She has great recalls on her Afghans. Yes, that's right, Afghans, often considered one of the least trainable dogs. And she did it entirely with positive methods. Period. I think that is mightily impressive.

K9: Yes it is, but not because they were Afghans, I have never found them a difficult dog to train.

But any breed can be trained without correction if:

The trainer has the experience

The dog has a enough useable drive or can have that drive developed.

Things dont go wrong.

[Steve K9Pro]

A: In the case of e-collars, if people get it wrong it can be downright Orwellian. If you get it right, that's excellent, but it's not a love tap, that's why it works - and I think it's important to be clear about that.

K9: Your clearly pointing out once again that the fault would belong to the handler... But say I wouldn't use e collars? Does that mean that you don't trust yourself?

A: The way some people talk about haltis and ecollars you'd think they deliver a massage.

K9: perhaps you could explain how you think e collars are used?

[Monah]

Just butting in here, sorry. Anita, I'm unsure why you mention sighthounds so often? The best, most easily trained, perfect on lead dogs I've ever had were my wolfhounds. Also, as far as 'sinbinning' goes, I can guarantee they would have been extremely distressed if ever in that situation, I don't see why cockers would be more so???( OT) can't discuss training collars and methods as I'm very ignorant about it all.

[Steve K9Pro]

D: I think it's sad that you would put your ultimate safety down to the dollars of what the dog cost compared to longevity in the field.

K9: I guess thats the way the economy works, sad but true. There is also the other end of the argument, if it takes a trainer three years to get a dog to working level when another may do it in 18 months, there must be a lot of wrong steps being taken.

What happens if the dog gets killed in action at 5 yrs of age? Do you sit and whinge about an expensive tool now lost? Or do you go...Wow...that dog was worth the wait and worth the dollars because he saved my life.

K9: Any day a dog saves a life is a good day, but no one ever trains a dog knowing it will pass away saving them, they know its a possibility & is avoided at all costs.

D: The other thing I think is if a dog is over the hill at 8 yrs in the field...then you need to find yourselves some better breeding material. Or take better care of the dog. (Not suggesting they aren't being looked after...after they cost you so much to get to working stage.)

K9: At certain ages, dogs & people lose some flexibility, fitness & drive, its a factor of age, it would be a rare dog of any breed that goes as hard at 8 as it does at 2 or 3, & perhaps I guess it is nice to retire them to an easier life rather than pushing them to work until they have no life left?

[MonElite]

Your telling him not to use an e collar but use drive, stating one of the reasons are that

N: His hips and bones are still developing at 12 months of age another reason to do things slowly.

K9: Training in prey drive would run more risk of injuring these immature bones than wearing an e collar...?

How??

The dog is to do some sort of excercise, lets say a recall.

What difference will it make if its doing it in drive or becouse it has been properly trained with ecollar?

It still has to run the same distance.

[Kavik]

I think K9 means all the jumping around that occurs in drive training?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Yes Kavik your correct...

[MonElite]

jumping around can happen if the dog is wearing a flat or ecollar too.

Hey try a treat the dog loves

Good training is good training no matter what the method is. If someone is worried about over jumping in drive than prevent the over jumping.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Monelite

[Steve K9Pro]

M: jumping around can happen if the dog is wearing a flat or ecollar too.

K9: perhaps you should read my reply again.

M: Good training is good training no matter what the method is.

K9: Nice saying wonder where you heard that... wish I had thought of it oops maybe I did.

[Nekhbet]

K9 LM had just stated he wanted his dog out of fear period so he could whack an e-collar on it. Thats why I asked what he was using it for - the 'wait till out of fear period' comment made me wonder.

As for the bones and growth - a security dog requires training in bitework does it not? A fairly physical activity for a dog especially a growing one. If you train for 12-14 months and say have it out working at 18 months you will have had to have spent quite some months having the dog chasing, grabbing sleeves, pulling against leash/tether during agitation etc.

K9: good e collar methods don't diminish drive...

my original comment was directed at the fact e-collar use requires some skill. Being surprised that handler enthusiasm directly impacts on the dog means the handler needs to learn a little more about the training as a whole before launching straight into e-collar use. I would think that part of your system steve involves motivation and praise not just negative reinforcement by removing a the 'correct stimulus for that dog' as LM stated.

Just seems another person is jumping on the tool when the abuse is always in the user, not the tool...

where did I directly state I have an issue with using an e-collar. I think they are brilliant and are a revolution in dog training when used properly. As stated before LM gave snippets of information and hence I gave generalisations because the actual training regiment was not stated. I've been to your seminar Steve and I have seen how you train as well.

Oh by the way I have been a K9 guard before and worked with other K9s. I've seen what people consider 'trained' as well so I am simply giving LM the idea there are two sides to the coin in the security world. Maybe you didnt know hence not understanding why I posted the fact I let my pup be patted by people at a young age I didnt get a working line Malinois just for fun

As for the workability if being suspicious and overly paranoid of people are not due to lack of interaction with them as a pup but nerves then why do people not allow people to touch their working pup? I dont see why letting people have a quick pat on the owners terms is a bad thing. My malinois climbs into people's laps for a cuddle but damned if you're getting into my house if i'm not home. So did I make a mistake? I like having guests and I love the fact she can also be a dog in her down time. Fairs fair, if a guard can head down to the pub on a friday night I think the dog has every right to get the odd belly scratch. Doesnt mean she neglects her duties and flies at the nearest group of people for cuddles.

My comments about letting the dog dictate the pace are just that. I understand people purchase an animal with the express purpose of working that - I would be pissed too if I paid X dollars and it took ages to train up the dog. BUT my comment was directed that some people can put unrealistic expectations on an animal and to get to the outcome use methods that are slightly unsavory. Yes 2-3 years would be a tad long but at the same time I wouldnt have confidence going out into the field with a dog under 18 months of age as I would worry about his long term physical, and maybe to a degree his mental health as well. Just my opinion Steve thats all it is, if I'm wrong ignore me.

[Dory the Doted One]

Hey K9, Thanks for the responses.

I understand a dog at 8 isn't going to go as hard as a dog of 2 or 3. And it's nice to see them retire while they still are able bodied to enjoy some life. What I've noticed is dogs that love it LOVE it, long past what is good for them. If at 8 they are still pretty fit (and I've seen some pretty fit 8 + Rotties...owned one..who at 9 made some younger dogs look sick) and keen to work, wouldn't you? And why aren't we breeding these fit, able and KEEN dogs on? Or are we?

I'm a long time out of the loop. I admit that. I'm hoping some of the breeding ideas and practises have changed since when I was hanging around the edges. Because they were shocking back then. Ridiculous and out of date ideas based on nothing more that what dogs were in the pedigree rather than looking at the flesh and blood dog that stood before them...or cowered before them in some cases. (hey, but you can turn that into defense, can't you?)

[Nekhbet]

(hey, but you can turn that into defense, can't you?)

by some people's logic ... YUP!

sad isnt it. Dont worry this still happens today. Back 'er up into a corner and agitate long enough for the dog to snap into foaming teeth at the mere mention of a command and Bob's your uncle