Check Chains?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Yet TO seems to think you can train any dog if you have had it from puppy hood without any tools - implying that anyone who can't teach a dog they've had from a young age to walk on a loose leash without tools is incompetent (that's any training tool not just prongs or check chains). We're not all miracle workers or perfect trainers who can accomplish that task without any corrections, or assistance from a tool, when you have a difficult dog whose instinct tells it to pull.

The difficulty I have with these discussions is that you are both right, though I think you're particularly right about implications of incompetence (which btw, come from both "sides" of these discussions).

You can train a dog effectively in a number of ways. Those ways are limited and shaped by the trainer's skill, values, emotional profile and resources (including time, money, access to good trainers and access to good tools). If you add into it strong personal views developed through personal experience and values that go way beyond dog training then it's no wonder you get people feeling that they are being accused of incompetence and/or unnecessarily hurting their dog in these discussions.

However, that can obscure the the fact that when someone says "X is possible" it means it's possible. That something is possible doesn't mean it has to happen that way. The reason I said earlier in the thread that what is easy to some is hard to others and vice versa, is because people often don't read their own capability and the capability of others very well. FWIW, there is a training goal that I know is possible with my dogs, and I'm not going to put the time in.

I asked a friend who has a purely positive trained Border Collie about training a recall under high distraction with my Salukis. I have seen him call his BC off a mob of running roos and the BC's compliance was perfect. He said that it would be possible to train the Salukis, if I had the willingness to put in a lot of time to work against their breeding - more time than I am prepared to put in. I know e-collars are another option, but my personal views mean that I will not use them.

So I have management plans in place instead, which is what the vast majority of Saluki people do (never letting them off lead in public, suitable fencing, and in the middle east, GPS collars so they can be located by a 4WD if they leave the pack). In short, it's possible to train a better recall under heavy distraction than I have using both purely positive or correction based methods and tools, but for various reasons I'm not going to do it. If I wanted a dog that didn't turn cloth eared in the presence of a hare, I would have picked a different breed.

[Kavik]

I agree that a 12 month old dog is still just a pup, wouldn't expect a dog to work security til 2 or so? Remembering that it is also your safety on the line as well as the dog. The more mature and ready the dog is the better I would think!

[Dory the Doted One]

In short, it's possible to train a better recall under heavy distraction than I have using both purely positive or correction based methods and tools, but for various reasons I'm not going to do it. If I wanted a dog that didn't turn cloth eared in the presence of a hare, I would have picked a different breed.

I love this...thankyou Anita.

Too too true.

[Nekhbet]

I'm the weirdo I find nothing wrong with letting my pup/dogs be patted by other people and be friendly. Has not decreased their workability in fact it has improved it since they see everyone as neutral and nothing to worry about. Conversely I dont have a super suspicious dog either which is nice when you go into the CBD or on public transport.

[Erny]

I'm the weirdo I find nothing wrong with letting my pup/dogs be patted by other people and be friendly. Has not decreased their workability in fact it has improved it since they see everyone as neutral and nothing to worry about. Conversely I dont have a super suspicious dog either which is nice when you go into the CBD or on public transport.

I am inclined to agree (must be the week for it :)). Although every dog is different, I generally don't see a simple pat as the dog receiving anything of high value from other people. Just my opinion.

[huski]

The difficulty I have with these discussions is that you are both right, though I think you're particularly right about implications of incompetence (which btw, come from both "sides" of these discussions).

You can train a dog effectively in a number of ways. Those ways are limited and shaped by the trainer's skill, values, emotional profile and resources (including time, money, access to good trainers and access to good tools). If you add into it strong personal views developed through personal experience and values that go way beyond dog training then it's no wonder you get people feeling that they are being accused of incompetence and/or unnecessarily hurting their dog in these discussions.

However, that can obscure the the fact that when someone says "X is possible" it means it's possible. That something is possible doesn't mean it has to happen that way. The reason I said earlier in the thread that what is easy to some is hard to others and vice versa, is because people often don't read their own capability and the capability of others very well. FWIW, there is a training goal that I know is possible with my dogs, and I'm not going to put the time in.

I asked a friend who has a purely positive trained Border Collie about training a recall under high distraction with my Salukis. I have seen him call his BC off a mob of running roos and the BC's compliance was perfect. He said that it would be possible to train the Salukis, if I had the willingness to put in a lot of time to work against their breeding - more time than I am prepared to put in. I know e-collars are another option, but my personal views mean that I will not use them.

So I have management plans in place instead, which is what the vast majority of Saluki people do (never letting them off lead in public, suitable fencing, and in the middle east, GPS collars so they can be located by a 4WD if they leave the pack). In short, it's possible to train a better recall under heavy distraction than I have using both purely positive or correction based methods and tools, but for various reasons I'm not going to do it. If I wanted a dog that didn't turn cloth eared in the presence of a hare, I would have picked a different breed.

Anita, I understand where you are coming from. I don't think its impossible to train a dog to a great recall using positive methods only - I know its possible for some people and for some dogs. Do I think its possible for ALL dogs? Not in my opinion. I think that each dog is different and no one method will work for one dog (which is why I'm not adverse to using training tools and use both positive and negative reinforcement in the appropriate situation). I don't think a person can use the blanket statement that all puppies can be taught to walk on a loose leash, for life, with nothing other than a flat collar, because each puppy and yes each handler is different, with different abilities and experiences. I don't think someone is a weak owner or trainer for choosing to use a training tool and using it appropriately under the right circumstances.

[corvus]

Anita, I understand where you are coming from. I don't think its impossible to train a dog to a great recall using positive methods only - I know its possible for some people and for some dogs. Do I think its possible for ALL dogs? Not in my opinion.

Have you seen Leslie Nelson?? She has great recalls on her Afghans. Yes, that's right, Afghans, often considered one of the least trainable dogs. And she did it entirely with positive methods. Period. I think that is mightily impressive.

To stay on topic, my experience with check chains has been pretty negative. I stopped using one after hanging my dog pulling her out of the way of the maniac mongrel next door that was charging her. She was okay, but it wasn't pretty picking between swinging her around on a check chain (all 4 feet off the ground) or watching this dog rip into her, which he'd been trying to do for months and finally had his chance. So please be aware that there are sometimes situations where check chains can be downright dangerous.

Once I stopped using the check (which we never really needed anyway), I found that my dog gradually started walking closer to me. I believe the only thing I managed to teach her with a check chain was that walking close to me illicited random unpleasantness. I was shown by a professional, but obviously one that didn't know what they were doing. I honestly don't think I will ever overcome that block I put in my dog with a check chain. It was not an appropriate tool for my dog at least. I think I would have had the same reaction from Kivi if I'd used one on him. He's pretty sensitive. I once taught him not to come inside by loudly interrupting him in the middle of peeing inside. It took me all evening to coax him back in.

I've never seen a dog that learnt to walk nicely as a puppy start pulling as an adult. Kivi tried it on a few weeks ago and has since given up on it. I do know a dog that didn't learn as a puppy and now only walks nicely on a halti. Take it off and she's all right for about 2 days, then she's pulling again.

It's all about habits, people. At least 90% of training is establishing habits you like.

Edited October 21, 2008 by corvus

[Just Midol]

"GSDs take a while to mature. Why push it? And like I said why use an E-collar are they going to stimulate the dog into defense earlier by supressing the prey or just use it as a corrective aid?"

I'll be following the method Steve from K9Force uses. I don't really consider it a correction. Low stim on, dog complies, stim off. The stim isn't high enough to take the dog out of drive.

That's basically how I understood it all squished into one line

[Sayreovi]

Well there you go, according to some posters i think i am the best most perfect dog trainer there is

Now everyone must listen to what i have to say and take it as the truth because i am unable to see others point of views and their experiences

Geez i better go and tell my dogs its time they start acting like the "easy" breed they are meant to be and that they are owned by the worlds best owner!!

Thanks for the laugh guys, needed it

[Cosmolo]

I think everyone agrees on the following-

- Different dogs need different types of training- some breeds and individuals within breeds are more difficult than others

- A training tool is only as good as the technique that accompanies it

- No one is a bad owner/ trainer!!

- No one is a perfect owner/ trainer!!

- Trying to teach puppies right behaviours from day one is ideal- with some dogs this doesn't always remain as their drive kicks in etc.

- All training equipment can be good or bad- depending on those using it. There are many different ways to use the same piece of equipment

- Flat collar is the betterequipment choice for young pups

Different owners have different expectations and i think a little mutual respect goes a long way. Just because someone chooses a certain training tool/ technique doesn't relate in any way IMO to their abilities etc as an owner.

[Just Midol]

I think everyone agrees on the following-

- Different dogs need different types of training- some breeds and individuals within breeds are more difficult than others

- A training tool is only as good as the technique that accompanies it

- No one is a bad owner/ trainer!!

- No one is a perfect owner/ trainer!!

- Trying to teach puppies right behaviours from day one is ideal- with some dogs this doesn't always remain as their drive kicks in etc.

- All training equipment can be good or bad- depending on those using it. There are many different ways to use the same piece of equipment

- Flat collar is the betterequipment choice for young pups

Different owners have different expectations and i think a little mutual respect goes a long way. Just because someone chooses a certain training tool/ technique doesn't relate in any way IMO to their abilities etc as an owner.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I'll be following the method Steve from K9Force uses. I don't really consider it a correction. Low stim on, dog complies, stim off.

How is that not a correction? The dog doesn't like the sensation so it changes its behaviour to stop it happening again.

I use negative punishment, particularly time outs. Time outs work because the dog doesn't like being isolated from the pack. I don't call it "giving the dog some personal space", it works because the dog doesn't like it. Let's not bull**** ourselves.

[Erny]

I use negative punishment, particularly time outs. Time outs work because the dog doesn't like being isolated from the pack.

Being isolated from the pack is one of the more severe punishments a pack would impose on one of their members. Just because it isn't physical doesn't mean it is gentle. Don't get me wrong .... I use sin-bins too (I refer to sin-bins as a punishment), when I must. "Time-outs" to me are simply that .... eg. settling down a game that's getting over the top by getting them settled in their crate.... not a punishment.) But I'm aware of the stress that sin-binning causes the dog. Many people (and I'm not necessarily suggesting you, Anita) don't give much consideration to it as being the often quite high level punishment that it is. A correction from something such as a check chain (given this is the tool this thread is about) is done and over with in a nanno-second. Message received. Behaviour changed. Reward given. Sin-binning often goes for longer than that.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Erny

[Just Midol]

I'll be following the method Steve from K9Force uses. I don't really consider it a correction. Low stim on, dog complies, stim off.

How is that not a correction? The dog doesn't like the sensation so it changes its behaviour to stop it happening again.

I use negative punishment, particularly time outs. Time outs work because the dog doesn't like being isolated from the pack. I don't call it "giving the dog some personal space", it works because the dog doesn't like it. Let's not bull**** ourselves.

Completely different scenarios.

You put your dog in time out AFTER it does something wrong.

I turn the stim on BEFORE the command. The dog has done nothing wrong so I am not correcting it for doing something wrong.

Terminology. Don't call me a liar.

ETA: And the sin bin places more stress on Gizmo than the prong or e-collar ever will. He HATES it.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Erny]

I'll be following the method Steve from K9Force uses. I don't really consider it a correction. Low stim on, dog complies, stim off.

How is that not a correction? The dog doesn't like the sensation so it changes its behaviour to stop it happening again.

Isn't a correction in the perception? I mean, if you're out in the sun, it gets too hot so you go inside. Do you feel you were punished/corrected by the sun? Or do you feel rewarded because when you went inside it was cool so you felt better? The latter example being of course the negative reinforcement component.

To "correct" means to alter or stop a behaviour doesn't it? Given the (low) stimulation in the process of e-collar -R training is given before any behaviour, how is that a correction? It is a fine line I agree, when you first look at it. But the way I see it, it is quite a bit different.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Erny

[Just Midol]

I'll be following the method Steve from K9Force uses. I don't really consider it a correction. Low stim on, dog complies, stim off.

How is that not a correction? The dog doesn't like the sensation so it changes its behaviour to stop it happening again.

Isn't a correction in the perception? I mean, if you're out in the sun, it gets too hot so you go inside. Do you feel you were punished/corrected by the sun? Or do you feel rewarded because when you went inside it was cool so you felt better? The latter example being of course the negative reinforcement component.

I wish I had your way with words

I know what I want to say... I just don't know how to put it.

[Kavik]

Once I stopped using the check (which we never really needed anyway), I found that my dog gradually started walking closer to me. I believe the only thing I managed to teach her with a check chain was that walking close to me illicited random unpleasantness. I was shown by a professional, but obviously one that didn't know what they were doing.

I find your statement, especially the bolded bit, rather strange. Using a check chain (or any corrective collar really) you would praise and reward the dog for walking close to the handler, the only the way the dog receives a correction is if it decides to walk away from (in front of) the handler. This way the dog learns near handler = good place to be,

[corvus]

To "correct" means to alter or stop a behaviour doesn't it? Given the (low) stimulation in the process of e-collar -R training is given before any behaviour, how is that a correction? It is a fine line I agree, when you first look at it. But the way I see it, it is quite a bit different.

No, to "correct" generally means to indicate or mark the errors in. Or perhaps we mean to punish in order to improve. Either way I don't even like the word correction. If I'm going to punish I call it by its name.

I don't think -R fits into either of those categories, btw.

ETA: Kavik, I never said I used the check chain correctly! As it happens, she did get praise, but it wasn't near good enough to override the unpleasantness of checking. As I said, a professional did tell me how to do it, but this was in the days when you had to have a check chain to enrol in an obedience class. The professional had one method and one method only. It was pretty bad for me and my dog.

Edited October 21, 2008 by corvus

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Being isolated from the pack is one of the more severe punishments a pack would impose on one of their members. Just because it isn't physical doesn't mean it is gentle. Don't get me wrong .... I use sin-bins too (I refer to sin-bins as a punishment), when I must. "Time-outs" to me are simply that .... eg. settling down a game that's getting over the top by getting them settled in their crate.... not a punishment.) But I'm aware of the stress that sin-binning causes the dog. Many people (and I'm not necessarily suggesting you, Anita) don't give much consideration to it as being the often quite high level punishment that it is. A correction from something such as a check chain (given this is the tool this thread is about) is done and over with in a nanno-second. Message received. Behaviour changed. Reward given. Sin-binning often goes for longer than that.

Sin binning goes for 2 minutes at our place, I use the microwave clock to time it and I probably do it once every month or two on average but it's usually with one of our entire males when they have behaved very inappropriately so it tends to cluster around the girl's seasons. It's the hardest thing I do to them which is why I picked it as an example - as I said, I don't believe it's a good idea to kid oneself if something you are doing is unpleasant to the dog.

I'm guessing a sin bin would be harder on a cocker spaniel than on a sighthound. Likewise a check chain can be harder on some breeds than others in my view.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Completely different scenarios.

You put your dog in time out AFTER it does something wrong.

I turn the stim on BEFORE the command. The dog has done nothing wrong so I am not correcting it for doing something wrong.

Terminology. Don't call me a liar.

ETA: And the sin bin places more stress on Gizmo than the prong or e-collar ever will. He HATES it.

In both scenarios you are imposing something unpleasant on the dog, and the training methods work because the dog does not like it. The electric pulse does not appear from nowhere, you choose to impose it.

As I do not use e-collars, I picked an example of something I do use to indicate I am not coming at it from a purely positive point of view. I was not suggesting that time outs are better or worse than anything else. They're different.

I was suggesting that if we impose something unpleasant on our dogs, even with the view of taking that unpleasantness away when the dog does what we want, we are bringing discomfort and often pain into its life and into our relationship with the dog. In the case of e-collars, if people get it wrong it can be downright Orwellian. If you get it right, that's excellent, but it's not a love tap, that's why it works - and I think it's important to be clear about that.