Unsatisfied Herding Drive

[Vickie]

I wanted to start another topic on this rather than continue in the other thread

Can I have a crack erny :p when you have a dog bred to work it exhibits behaviors to try and fulfill that drive. It will do anything, even things that really are not completely satisfying it like digging, chewing, barking etc to cope. If the dogs drive says 'herd' fulfill it and it wont go looking around for menial little things to satisfy it.

Sure .... and you did good :p. Don't know that I could do any better and I'm a bit rushed at the moment so pardon me if what I write reflects that.

Basically, Vicki - the activity (eg. herding) which is based in raw instinct helps 'balance' the mind of a dog otherwise troubled in instances where the dog is frantically looking for something else but not achieving it. This is where things such as chasing shadows; manic digging; and other potentially obsessive behaviours can stem from and they increase in an ever spiralling upwards manner because although those latter activities might quell the dog's frustration for the moment, they don't achieve the satisfaction it seeks so it keeps trying .... for the want of not being able to or knowing what else to do.

Firstly, I totally agree that a bored, destructive or stir crazy dog needs stimulation and training to help channel that energy into something positive. I think this applies to most if not all breeds.

but...I always wonder why destructive behaviour/s that any breed can & do exhibit are often automatically labelled as a need to fulfill a herding drive/instinct if the dog happens to be a working breed.

It is no secret that I belive that there is a huge difference between working breed & working bred.

For instance, as a behaviouralist, would you give the same advice to the owner of a herding breed such as a corgi or a malinios displaying the same behaviours, that you would a BC?

There are lots of BC's that have a high drive & inability to settle. They can also come with obsessive type behaviours such as barking at nothing, fly chasing and can be quite happy to entertain themselves in destructive behaviours. It is my opinion that these dogs are generally not suitable nor are they going to benefit from herding training.

I would classify my Noah as a perfect example. The very things that make him prone to these weird behaviours if unstimulated, would also make him unsuitable as a working dog. He would be happy to be alone & entertain himself, his lack of appropriate drive to work "with" me would be a problem in herding. He has a high prey drive, also inappropriate, since herding requires a truncated prey drive...and he has absolutely no natural ability whatsoever. I was always told that his temperament was that of a working bred dog & he needed to work. Now that I am spending a lot of time with working dogs & learning more & more all the time, I see that nothing could be further from the truth.

I am not saying that none of these dogs have an ability to progress in herding, I am sure some do, but too often I hear people hanging on to, "oh my dog is a working dog" as an excuse for behaviours that many other breeds exhibit. Some people try herding, some progress, some don't. Some give up because their dogs obviously lack ability & some keep going week after week, determined that they will make it work b/c someone told them their dog needed it. Often in this case, the dogs end up suffering & so do the sheep.

As more & more people start to breed working breeds for sports or for nothing in particular, these dogs that are over the top will continue to increase...but I don't think you can say that they are working dogs whose drive will be satisfied by herding. They will retain aspects of ability & instinct...but herding is not like agility where any dog can do it given enough training.

JMO. I would love to hear some discussion from behaviouralists/trainers theories & experiences & also from those who work stock with their dogs.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Vickie

[Kavik]

Very interesting topic Vickie.

I have had a couple of people tell me that Zoe, who is dog aggressive, would be fine on a farm with a job to do like herding. I have not taken her herding, so I don't know how she would be on sheep. But I do know that dog aggressive dogs are not tolerated in working situations, so I always tell people that she would not be suitable. She does not have a stable temperament, though she has plenty of drive. She does have an issue with reflections/shadows and can become obsessed with bugs/lizards or patches of ground (recently fertilised) - some of which because my family thought it was funny for her to chase reflections when little and I didn't know how bad it was.

I think she would be interested in sheep, but as to whether she has the talent to actually work them is something else entirely, and I have not done enough or seen enough to know.

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Vicki

Long time no "speak".

I am not sure if the orignal thread was about sending the dog off to herd ONLY, or whether the word "work" constituted other activities? So I'll add my 20c worth hoping that I'm on the mark.

If I took a working bred pup that was born on a farm away to the city before it even saw sheep, would that pup (and later dog) know that he or she was meant to herd? Probably not. But if that dog became a destructive dog due to boredom and pent up drive, would other activities such as agility or flyball satisfy that urge?....most certainly. Even a frisbee or ball game would do the trick as long as the instinct was given an outlet and it wouldn't matter what that outlet was.

If we go to the more "watered" down instincts of the working breeds (ie any bench lines or breeds no longer used like the Corgie), they may also show inclination to herd and chase, as this is a hard wired instinct, but as you state, that does not mean that they will be any good at herding, or even enjoy it for that matter.

The drive we need to satisfy is prey drive, which gives cause to chase, therefore the outlet should include anything that involves running and/or chasing something...and not necessarily sheep. This would apply to both working bred and working breeds with high drives.

I get these cases all the time where people tell me that they have a BC or an ACD that would make a great working dog because it rounds up the kids. I tell them that unless the dog has a natural herding ability and of course, workability, then that may not be the case. I will recommend that they get involved in a dog sport or even teach their dog to fetch (at the very least) to help satisfy drive.

How many times have I heard this..."my BC was very destructive so I gave him to my uncle who owns a farm with sheep to go and work". I wonder how many of these dogs actually end up "working"?

There is a distinct difference between high prey drive and herding ability.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Kelpie-i

[Nekhbet]

It is no secret that I belive that there is a huge difference between working breed & working bred.

Completely agree with you there. Same reason people purchase GSDs, Rotties, Dobes etc and expect them to be natural guard dogs or excell at schutzhund etc. Reality most of them pee themselves when put through a courage test or training.

But ... what is wrong with suggesting trying out an activity more suited to the breed? Some dogs become bored of things like obedience and agility because they can be repetitive - yes they involve prey drive but as you stated they do not utilise it in the same way or have the same requirements as something like herding. I encourage people of working breeds that exhibit a will to work to at least try different activities available as they can be more exciting for the owner too. A malinois spinning in the backyard should go do obedience at a minimum - but a Mali would be bored if all you did was obedience. Try herding. Try Schutzhund they are very capable dogs.

Joining a herding club and trying the dog out cannot hurt - I loathe advocating "send the dog to a farm' because, as you stated, what we perceive as a good working dog may not be right at all. One of my clients has a farm bred kelpie and a show bred kelpie. Both have started herding practice and the show bred kelpie is actually doing much better! I was surprised as the farm bred exhibits more herding behaviors out and about (he stalks and rounds whereas the show bounces round and goofs)

I saw the fact the dog amused himself as probably a learned behavior - the first 18 months alone and unstimulated can do weird things to the adolescent brain. Who knows maybe he does have herding ability or maybe he is just a lonely flycatcher. But you dont know until you try. He is also without human company for 10hrs a day and receives 10 minutes of brainwork a day - still a recipe for crazy behavior.

[Erny]

Taken from Steven R. Lindsay's "Applied Dog Behaviour and Training" .... Volumes 1 and 2 :-

"Swedo (1989) proposes that compulsive behaviour may be the result of a dysfunctional releaser and fixed-action pattern (FAP) ... Given the relatively narrow range and specificity of compulsive behaviour disorders, it makes sense to interpret them in terms of species-typical adaptations to persistent frustration or conflict. ......."

"FAP's depend on an inner readiness (appetitive, emotional, and hormonal) for action, a releasing or sign stimulus of sufficient strength to trigger the innate releasing mechanisms (IRMs), and the excitation of an appropriate motor program. Although experience and learning modify to some extent most instinctive behaviour patterns, the general form and expression of an FAP is innately programmed and not subject to learning."

There's much more said inbetween all of this and I need to read it more closely and probably a few times to grasp the complete essence of it all and to be able to explain what (I at least think) it means in more simple terms. I don't advocate only "herding" to dogs who require mental stimulation. I often suggest activities such as agility; training; fetch; etc. etc. I could have listed all of these things and more in the other thread too, and perhaps I should have. Naturally, I don't know the dog in question and by no means was I jumping to any "conclusion" about the dog from which this topic has now arisen. Herding was a suggestion by me as, if it is something to which the dog has the ability, IMO given it is an activity which reaches the 'core' of certain dog breeds' (and certain individuals within dog breeds) instincts.

I am not saying that just because the dog herds birds or the shadows of birds that it correlates to that dog being good at herding, or even necessarily enjoying it. But those behaviours were adapted behaviours by the dog from somewhere and if they do derive from some instinctive nature, then surely that is something that could be explored?

I too have in the past expressed concerns that if people are going to use herding as an activity for their dog, that the training needs to follow through as to halt it at the wrong point may proove problematic. Perhaps I should have expressed it again in my post in the other thread. I am remiss that I was working on the assumption that the person would query as to where they might go for the herding training experience and that the right guidance to known reputable herding trainers would be given. Of course, I also am in grave error of assuming that those trainers would give the right advice and explanation to their prospective clients/students although if they are "reputable" I think this would be a reasonable assumption.

I don't do herding and I do not profess to be expert in that region. But I have watched and seen the "instinct" unfold like a flower before my very eyes in very short space of time (same session) and with dogs who previously had no clue. I have watched many agility classes and have never witnessed this 'blooming' as I have with something as close to nature as herding is by comparison. I will not say there is no instinctive work component within the activity of agility, but IMO it does not reach the 'heart' of a dog's instinct as spontaneously as a natural activity such as herding does for those dogs who do possess the (albeit deeply hidden) instinct for it.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Erny

[Tassie]

......

but...I always wonder why destructive behaviour/s that any breed can & do exhibit are often automatically labelled as a need to fulfill a herding drive/instinct if the dog happens to be a working breed.

It is no secret that I belive that there is a huge difference between working breed & working bred.

.....

There are lots of BC's that have a high drive & inability to settle. They can also come with obsessive type behaviours such as barking at nothing, fly chasing and can be quite happy to entertain themselves in destructive behaviours. It is my opinion that these dogs are generally not suitable nor are they going to benefit from herding training.

I would classify my Noah as a perfect example. The very things that make him prone to these weird behaviours if unstimulated, would also make him unsuitable as a working dog. He would be happy to be alone & entertain himself, his lack of appropriate drive to work "with" me would be a problem in herding. He has a high prey drive, also inappropriate, since herding requires a truncated prey drive...and he has absolutely no natural ability whatsoever. I was always told that his temperament was that of a working bred dog & he needed to work. Now that I am spending a lot of time with working dogs & learning more & more all the time, I see that nothing could be further from the truth.

I am not saying that none of these dogs have an ability to progress in herding, I am sure some do, but too often I hear people hanging on to, "oh my dog is a working dog" as an excuse for behaviours that many other breeds exhibit. Some people try herding, some progress, some don't. Some give up because their dogs obviously lack ability & some keep going week after week, determined that they will make it work b/c someone told them their dog needed it. Often in this case, the dogs end up suffering & so do the sheep.

As more & more people start to breed working breeds for sports or for nothing in particular, these dogs that are over the top will continue to increase...but I don't think you can say that they are working dogs whose drive will be satisfied by herding. They will retain aspects of ability & instinct...but herding is not like agility where any dog can do it given enough training.

.....

My bolding to emphasise what I see is key points.

Excellent post, Vickie. I too have concerns about suggestions of herding training as a way of dealing with under-stimulation problems. In my experience, the level of commitment by the owner and biddability of the dog to progress safely and successfully in 'herding'/stock work are actually considerably greater than for say having fun at agility.

I would much rather see owners being encouraged to work with the dog in other areas which do not involve stress and danger to other animals. Sheep and ducks are not, and should never be seen as, dog toys or boredom busters. Things such as teaching tricks, dance moves, frisbee, going lure racing, learning agility - all of these will help to stimulate the dog, and improve the dog/handler relationship.

It always makes me cringe when people talk about dogs 'herding' kids or other creatures - in most cases, it's chasing behaviour rather than herding, since there's usually no cooperative effort between dog and handler.

JMHO.

[Vickie]

Long time no "speak"

I was hoping you would read this thread and I totally agree with all you have written.

The drive we need to satisfy is prey drive, which gives cause to chase, therefore the outlet should include anything that involves running and/or chasing something...and not necessarily sheep. This would apply to both working bred and working breeds with high drives.

I get these cases all the time where people tell me that they have a BC or an ACD that would make a great working dog because it rounds up the kids. I tell them that unless the dog has a natural herding ability and of course, workability, then that may not be the case. I will recommend that they get involved in a dog sport or even teach their dog to fetch (at the very least) to help satisfy drive.

I guess the key word in the above for me is "workability" and Barb touched on it again here:

It always makes me cringe when people talk about dogs 'herding' kids or other creatures - in most cases, it's chasing behaviour rather than herding, since there's usually no cooperative effort between dog and handler.

Herding is a cooperative effort. That trait to work with the handler should be a vital & hard wired part of working stock, without it, they are chasing, just like any other breed could/would.

Without any training, on first exposure, if I let my dogs loose in a paddock of sheep (btw this is based on real experience):

Noah would chase them in an attempt to bring one down

My girls would bring me the sheep

Zeus would stand beside me, looking from me to the sheep.

Of the 4 dogs, 3 would make it about me & one would forget I existed...guess which one has the compulsive barking, bird/fly chasing potential?

I am not saying the other 3 are not capable of compulsive type behaviours, they are. It is this kind of obsessive single minded trait that makes the BC the working dog it is...but their compulsions tend to focus around getting me to do something with them.

But ... what is wrong with suggesting trying out an activity more suited to the breed?

Nothing, although I would change the word breed to breeding . My problem was not with a suggestion to try herding, it is with the suggestion that a dog is displaying behaviours because of unsatisfied instinct and that herding may actually provide a solution to the problems. As everyone including you have pointed out, there are so many ways & activities to stimulate a dog. I would prefer that trainers did not automatically see

BC = working dog = bad behaviour = must need to herd

I would much rather see owners being encouraged to work with the dog in other areas which do not involve stress and danger to other animals. Sheep and ducks are not, and should never be seen as, dog toys or boredom busters. Things such as teaching tricks, dance moves, frisbee, going lure racing, learning agility - all of these will help to stimulate the dog, and improve the dog/handler relationship?

Totally agreed, there are far too many people using sheep as toys, either chasing titles or determined to prove that their dog can do what it's heritage suggests it should.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Vickie

[Vickie]

I just went searching for a topic on BC Boards...I knew it wouldn't take me long to find an appropriate one, since I am sure this gets discussed a lot. This one raises many of the points I am trying to make...only better

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...0drive&st=0

[Lablover]

Vickie, should I reply from my retrieving/hunting point of view?

[OSoSwift]

I am from a farming life and there are many dogs born and bred on farms that just don't have the correct temprement to work. Some will chase and pull down, some will run relentless circles around livestock but with no constuctive purpose. Some just sit there and say if you want them get em yourself. I cringe when I hear oh I have a BC and he is a hassle in town he needs to live on a farm or acreage so he can run around. These people are totally missing the point of why their dog has problems. Yes they will probably get more physical exersize, but no more mental exersize unless the new owner makes a big effort. These dogs will possible chase stock by them selves with or without biting/physical damage, do the same naughty things they did in town, or potentially nick off and create their own entertainment. Many other brain stimulating activies that stimulate the brain would be better for a working type of breed with no animal/sheep sense. Otherwise sheep get hurt and traumatised by weekend sheepdogs.

[jesomil]

Vickie, great posts, great thread!!

[Tonymc]

Hello Vickie, long time no talk.Hope all is well down your way.Great topic you brought up.

but...I always wonder why destructive behaviour/s that any breed can & do exhibit are often automatically labelled as a need to fulfill a herding drive/instinct if the dog happens to be a working breed.

Vickie, in many case's yes the above is adopted as the probable cause.I found in a lot of case's the above answer was something Joe Bloggs threw in because he did not really know!!!Many times its the quick fix answer for those who do not know.You,your Grandfather and I all know that not every problem one may encounter with a working dog is related to the dogs breed specific drive or task.For example a Kelpie can have problems totally unrelated to sheep work.

Vickie, yes the point you make about there being a difference between a working dog and working bred is sadly true.There are Bench Kelpies I would not feed and I have seen some disasterous BCs.Sadly at times working breeds have suffered Human Ego and the Cuteness factor.People in some case's from Town with no understanding or knowledge of a working Breed see a member of that Breed and due to where they as Humans are coming from judge the Dog rather superficially on things like color and "Cuteness"No knowledge or awareness is raised about Breed habits,drive and so on.So they buy one of these "Cute Dogs" and a recipe for disaster unfolds!!!!Get enough of these types buying on "cuteness " alone and many dogs end up affected and we end up with the sad spectacle where we have Working breeds ending being slit into lines that will work and lines that are useless or very very ineffective.How is this brought about?Well it happens due to people buying the working breed and never working him or her.The only way to ascertain properly what level of drive a working dog has is to work him.Those in the Know always bred those with good drive to those with good drive.This ensured that a good level of drive was maintained in the breed which allowed the breed to maintain their drive and ability to do the job.

These People though never testing for drive end up breeding for superficial factors such as color, always end up sooner or later breeding low drive dogs to low drive dogs.Keep this up and we have Dogs no longer have the strong instinct to carry out the job.Then we end up with as said above working lines and non working lines.To me its a disgrace to have dogs that are incapable of working within working breeds.

Every situation whether it be with a Horse,Dog or Human has to be looked at on an individual basis.Many situations may have many commonalities but at the same times have many differences.So it has to be an individual asessment based soley on the evidence,behaviour,genetics and Human input of when dealing with a dog.

Rommi, you have made a few generalisations in your post.Generalisations never work.You mention about somebody having trouble with their BC for example.If I was asked to look at a troublesome BC I would go their with no predujice or assumption prior to seeing the Dog.The Dog may have unrelated problems but he also may have a big problem with no outlet to release and express drive.I would let the dog show me where he or she is coming from.Also if a BC or so on goes to a Farm to live he or she is not going to be allowed to behave as you described.

Yes I have seen working Dog's who were stuck in Surburbia with no outlet for drive and these dogs had become obsessive and or neurotic.Prey drive is like a flowing river.Stick the dog where he has no release or outlet for drive and we have dammed the river.So what happens?The Water{Drive} builds up and builds up as it can no longer take its natural course.Pressure builds and builds till the mass of water is too much.When this happens the water bursts through and takes a new course!!!!This is what happens for example with some of these Dogs that become obsessive Bird chaser's and so on.

Dogs that ring nearly always go back to very poor training and gudance or lack of buy the Human.As Kids the Grandfather,Uncles who were drovers would have kicked my rear end if I let a Dog get into the habit of ringing.From a Dogs point of view though he does not know it is not constructive behaviour, we have to show him a better way.

Some dogs that may be rough on Sheep can be put on Cattle and handy dogs made of them. Tony

[Vickie]

Thanks for your input everyone...I have been meaning to reply to your post Erny, but need to think about it. I would like to hear further findings on the study you quoted. I took it to be more generic than breed specific, but would like to hear more if you have looked into it further.

I am not saying that just because the dog herds birds or the shadows of birds that it correlates to that dog being good at herding, or even necessarily enjoying it. But those behaviours were adapted behaviours by the dog from somewhere and if they do derive from some instinctive nature, then surely that is something that could be explored?

Of course it can be explore, but there are SO many components that make a dog even workable on stock, I'm just not so sure that chasing shadows or birds is an indicator of one of those components and I don't think it is any more common in a BC than in a lab.

I don't do herding and I do not profess to be expert in that region. But I have watched and seen the "instinct" unfold like a flower before my very eyes in very short space of time (same session) and with dogs who previously had no clue. I have watched many agility classes and have never witnessed this 'blooming' as I have with something as close to nature as herding is by comparison. I will not say there is no instinctive work component within the activity of agility, but IMO it does not reach the 'heart' of a dog's instinct as spontaneously as a natural activity such as herding does for those dogs who do possess the (albeit deeply hidden) instinct for it.

Totally agree. Watching a talented dog switch on & do what it was bred to do is without a doubt one of the most amazing things I have ever witnessed in my life. But...the big word in the above sentence is bred to do. It doesn't just generally happen by accident, all the right things need to come together in genetics for a dog to "unfold like a flower".

Have a look at this clip...this is pure instinct & breeding, first time on sheep, no training.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=fS06tDXB80c

I don't think there is any instinctive component in agility...but I think that there are genetic traits related to instinct that carry across to agility. I think dogs that are pressure sensitive on stock will often be pressure sensitive in agility & dogs that are bred to biddable to work stock, tend to be often biddable in agility.

I know you would never have suggested herding as the only option for a stir crazy BC in a consult...but it just seems to be such a cliche used so often by dog trainers & by people involved in rescue that I wanted to discuss it. In all honesty I think that if the above 2 groups are going to suggest herding as an activity for stir crazy under stimulated dogs, then they should at least make the effort to learn a bit about what they are recommending and also have a look at what happens when things go wrong with dogs that do not have the correct genetics (I have some pretty atrocious photos of this).

Edited October 20, 2008 by Vickie

[jesomil]

That is a brilliant little dog in that video you posted. Wow!!

[JulesP]

It is funny Vickie, my borders are very 'biddable' but that doesn't seem to be a desired trait anymore in dog sports. My borders are considered 'too quiet'.