Topic Change - Now E-collar Question

[MolassesLass]

16 month old desexed male BC

Was kept in a small backyard and seldom walked, no toys, minimal human interaction (though someone was home 99% of the time) up until 13 months old when given bacl for (totally suprising ) destroying things, digging, being out of control and barking.

Has since spent one month back with me and then one month on trial.

Has started sitting at front fence while owners are at work and intermittently barking (calling for owners?). Has also destroyed cane chairs, cane basket and ripped up all bedding. Lives with another dog, gets walked morning and night and is being trained at home. Owners are at work approximately 10 hours a day weekdays.

Does it sound more likely that he's not getting enough stimulation still or separation anxiety?

Edited October 22, 2008 by molasseslass

[Erny]

What's included in the daily exercise and over what period of time?

What's the dog's behaviour like once the owners leave, or where the dog is aware that they are about to leave?

Won't be able to tell anything from the short amount of info supplied and without knowing/seeing the dog - especially in the absence of historical information (eg. learnt behaviours etc.)

IF the behaviour is related to the owners leaving, it may not necessarily be "separation anxiety" which is a VERY complex condition. Could be simply that he doesn't like being without 'someone' there.

Particularly (but not only) because there is the absence of historical information, it would be necessary to trial a few things first in an effort to narrow down to the 'cause' in the first place.

[MolassesLass]

Thanks for the reply Erny.

What's included in the daily exercise and over what period of time?

A 30 min morning walk and in the afternoon a small amount of fetch training (he's not proficient at this skill yet) - that's Monday to Friday. On the weekend he gets 45 - 60 minute walk one day and an hour long visit to a dog park the other day.

They do 5 - 10 minutes of training a day 4 - 5 days a week. Things like sit, drop and stay.

What's the dog's behaviour like once the owners leave, or where the dog is aware that they are about to leave?

When they leave he is happy - tail wagging, tongue out. As they drive out he runs to the fence towards next door's dog (doesn't bark but he used to). He's very excited when they get home and fairly regularly urinates.

What I observed of him in his first home was pacing and snapping at imaginary flies. Dug up and chewed apart irrigation system. Chewed the outdoor furniture and anything left outside with him. Knew sit, shake and to come to his name - nothing else. Was barking at night at seemingly nothing, could have been bats though as I observed him at my place chasing birds across the sky and barking at them.

ETA: I know I should probably be getting a professional in person in, but right now I can't afford it and would like to get started until I can.

Edited October 14, 2008 by molasseslass

[JulesP]

Could just be a high drive dog.

Last week Poppy chewed up a cane basket (cane must be fun to chew up) and ripped up about 5 mags and threw them all around the garden. As well as holes dug and a bit of bed chewing. Now she has 2 friends, an acre of garden, has a free run in the mornings and fairly intense training daily. She is just a busy little beaver!

Sounds like this doggie needs to get into agility or something to harness some of that energy.

[Erny]

When they leave he is happy - tail wagging, tongue out. As they drive out he runs to the fence towards next door's dog (doesn't bark but he used to). He's very excited when they get home and fairly regularly urinates.

How long after they leave is it that his destructive behaviour and/or barking start?

What I observed of him in his first home was pacing and snapping at imaginary flies. Dug up and chewed apart irrigation system. Chewed the outdoor furniture and anything left outside with him. Knew sit, shake and to come to his name - nothing else. Was barking at night at seemingly nothing, could have been bats though as I observed him at my place chasing birds across the sky and barking at them.

If these people can arrange it, I'd suggest trying him with some herding lessons. IMO this activity goes straight to instinct and can often help resolve other less appetative behaviour.

ETA: I know I should probably be getting a professional in person in, but right now I can't afford it and would like to get started until I can.

The problem is that the "start" is usually the most important part to get right as this is what will be the foundation for the dog's improved behaviour.

[Nekhbet]

remember this dog has spent a lot of time alone (grrrrrrrr kick to the old owners) and now he is under stress. He is probably lacking a few social skills as well if he barely spent time with people and dogs so he copes by releasing his anxiety through destruction and barking.

Separation anxiety no. Like Erny said that is a complex thing that is often misdiagnosed by the owners. He does sound still hideously under stimulated mentally. He may have toys and another dog but he's not used to utilising them to satisfy his drive/boredom. My rescue GSD was given 2 other dogs, a huge yard, toys, massive water buckets etc and he spent a couple of months sitting in a dog run (door was open) alone with an empty plastic bucket not drinking - that was the old habit, that was comfort, that's how he coped.

He does need to do something more with his brain, if he's catching imaginary flies the little tyke sounds stir crazy. Instead of that 30 minute walk in the morning I would work on cementing leadership and training the dog. He can run around with the other dog, at the moment the priority is getting his brain right. 5-10 minutes of training is not enough for a border, a clicker would be a great way to train tricks. The list of capturable behaviors is endless for them and could help with his fetching as well. Plus the dog will get half on hour of brain exercise a day instead of the dry, repetitive sit/drop. For a border that is a couple of days worth of activity not day in day out.

If he really has to much energy to burn look at the diet and investing in a treadmill for the dog.

[MolassesLass]

I went around last night to visit and some of the information (passed to me from owners through my brother) was wrong. And upon seeing him and talking to them, I think it's just boredom too.

His barking is at the neighbours dog when the neighbour throws the ball (against the in-between fence) during the day for his dog. And it's Rocky (a tiny mini foxie) who starts it but Jack barks longer and is much louder so is the one that attracts attention. He barks at the front fence only when someone walks past with a dog.

The people who are complaining are dole bludging stay at homers, other neighbours don't think Jack is a problem. But I've advised to train him to ignore the stimulus when they are home and they are also beginning to use an anti-bark collar.

They weren't too worried about the destruction itself, just thought it meant they weren't doing enough for him. Advised them to do more training, gave them some different types of toys to try and encouraged them to start some sports when they can.

Thanks so much for the advise.

[Vickie]

If these people can arrange it, I'd suggest trying him with some herding lessons. IMO this activity goes straight to instinct and can often help resolve other less appetative behaviour.

can you explain this a little more pls Erny

Edited October 15, 2008 by Vickie

[Nekhbet]

Can I have a crack erny when you have a dog bred to work it exhibits behaviors to try and fulfill that drive. It will do anything, even things that really are not completely satisfying it like digging, chewing, barking etc to cope. If the dogs drive says 'herd' fulfill it and it wont go looking around for menial little things to satisfy it.

[Erny]

Can I have a crack erny when you have a dog bred to work it exhibits behaviors to try and fulfill that drive. It will do anything, even things that really are not completely satisfying it like digging, chewing, barking etc to cope. If the dogs drive says 'herd' fulfill it and it wont go looking around for menial little things to satisfy it.

Sure .... and you did good ;). Don't know that I could do any better and I'm a bit rushed at the moment so pardon me if what I write reflects that.

Basically, Vicki - the activity (eg. herding) which is based in raw instinct helps 'balance' the mind of a dog otherwise troubled in instances where the dog is frantically looking for something else but not achieving it. This is where things such as chasing shadows; manic digging; and other potentially obsessive behaviours can stem from and they increase in an ever spiralling upwards manner because although those latter activities might quell the dog's frustration for the moment, they don't achieve the satisfaction it seeks so it keeps trying .... for the want of not being able to or knowing what else to do.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Erny

[Vickie]

Thank you both. As a BC owner & someone who works dogs on sheep regularly, I have some questions/problems about/with these theories, despite the fact that they seem to be public opinion. I have to go out for a while but would love to discuss this further in another thread when I get back.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Vickie

[Erny]

Thank you both. As a BC owner & someone who works dogs on sheep regularly, I have some problems with these theories, despite the fact that they seem to be public opinion. I have to go out for a while but would love to discuss this further in another thread when I get back.

I could tell by the way you posed your query to me that you were thinking differently ;). Will enjoy chatting on it and will look forward to reading your thread.

[Nekhbet]

Vickie,

when I do consults and see stir crazy dogs I recommend people at least do SOMETHING that stimulates the animals mind and fulfills the dog. Give the dog a job. It doesnt necessarily have to be herding, herding clubs and trainers are hard to get here in Geelong, but even doing something like agility, obedience, flyball, tracking etc can be very beneficial to the dogs overall state of mind. And encouraging things that can be done at home means owner compliance goes up.

For very busy people I teach them how to use a clicker and get them to have fun with the dog. Teach them new tricks, hell I'll even show them how to get the dog to retrieve a beer from the fridge if it means the dog and owner have some time together - the owner learns dog language, the dog has its mind stimulated.

[Janba]

If these people can arrange it, I'd suggest trying him with some herding lessons. IMO this activity goes straight to instinct and can often help resolve other less appetative behaviour.

can you explain this a little more pls Erny

I agree with Vickie's queries on this. The problem with turning their herding instinct on is that if you have a dog with strong instinct you then have to continue to work them regularly or provide another form of mental stimulation when you can't work sheep or the problems will return and it may be worse. Wouldn't it be better to do some other form of stimulation that can be carried out on a regular basis?

Stalking birds and rounding up kids and other dogs has no correlation with wether or not the dog will actually work stock properly.

[ness]

Stalking birds and rounding up kids and other dogs has no correlation with wether or not the dog will actually work stock properly.

Nope it doesn't say whether the dog will work stock or not but I think if the dog shows some stalking behavior on birds and its calm and methodical compared with the rush and chase of prey drive then I would think its worth a shot. I am not in a position of much experience but I have tried my pup on ducks in a herding setting and I know she responds differently to the way my much older dog does. Even at the park where there are ducks my older one will stalk a bit but then rush in whereas the younger one will spend much more time watching and stalking then actually charging and rushing. I know my older one isn't very good at herding but then she only had her first shot at 5 or 6 and god knows what bad behaviors I had encouraged over the years (probably a few).

Funny thing is though on the "stalking/rounding behavior" my older girl was much more movement sensitive as a baby of inappropriate things like cars/trucks whereas I haven't seen the same behavior in my youngster yet (although she is only 6 months).

[MolassesLass]

Jack has learnt very quickly from the anti-bark collar which is fantastic, however his owners are now thinking it's unfair that their other dog barks (he is almost always the one who starts it) and are considering using the collar on him.

I'm concerned as the other dog Rocky is 11 years old and is a 5kg mini-foxie cross. He starts the barking but being so small people don't tend to hear him like they hear Jack. They are using a BC-50 Innotek collar which simply states "Suits small to medium sized barking dogs".

Should I be right in being concerned about using this collar on a dog as small and old as Rocky?