Stopping Aggression Or Stopping Signals?

[jaybeece]

I'm sorry you live in a world where apparently dogs are much more dangerous than the ones I routinely encounter.

They don't have to be "dangerous" to cause a problem. My dog was dominance humped to the point where he had scratches down the inside of his legs and was also chased and harassed. It wasn't very common that he was attacked by other dogs, probably only happened a handful of times, but enough for him to realise he was going to win everytime.

I lost count of the number of people who said "Oh my dog's never done that before!" after I hauled my dog out from underneath them. And then of course my dog was the awful one when one day he got sick of being humped/harassed and snapped back. Of course the instigator wasn't at fault according to the owner, my dog was the horrible one

The problem is that there are far too many dogs who have poor social skills and owners who say "Let them be, they'll sort it out". They will alright, but probably not in a very nice way.

[laeral]

Sorry to interrrupt but I have a question. I have posted a thread about my friends GSD pup who is showng quite a bit of dog agression when i noticed this thread. My friend has been taking her pup to puppy obedience classes and the trainer there has told her that this behaviour is nothing to overly stress about and that it will get better with time (never go away) and she will learn how to manage him.

What this trainer suggests is that every time he goes near another dog and starts growling she is to tell him to LEAVE IT, give him a correction with the lead and take him off in another direction. Then try again and repeat the process if he growls again. By doing this (correcting when he growls) is this telling the dog the unwanted behaviour is the growling and not the aggression? Can this lead to him learning not to show warning signs before aggression? Sorry if this is a stupid question just trying to get and understanding.

Your understanding is correct IMO. This is certainly not the way I'd be dealing with the issue but I'll leave it to the experts from here.

Yeah I thought so, would be a shame to not do the right thing by the little fellow cos hes such a nice dog in every other way. Thats for your opinion

[dee lee]

IMO first step is to teach the dog there is another way - IOW, teach a behaviour the dog can come to learn as a default coping behaviour. That is not wisely done by merely correcting the aggression and is not something I would recommend. I won't suggest to people over the internet on what to do with their dogs in matters of aggression - unwise because whatever I suggest may not be suitable for the individual dog, or the handler may not be able to handle it properly (or by the mere fact that she can't be shown how to do it so may do it all wrong with wrong timing etc).

Erny, I know you didnt want to elaborate but I have heard this before and it confuses me. I cant imagine what behaviour could be a default coping behavior. Can you possible just explain that?

[laeral]

Sorry to interrrupt but I have a question. I have posted a thread about my friends GSD pup who is showng quite a bit of dog agression when i noticed this thread. My friend has been taking her pup to puppy obedience classes and the trainer there has told her that this behaviour is nothing to overly stress about and that it will get better with time (never go away) and she will learn how to manage him.

What this trainer suggests is that every time he goes near another dog and starts growling she is to tell him to LEAVE IT, give him a correction with the lead and take him off in another direction. Then try again and repeat the process if he growls again. By doing this (correcting when he growls) is this telling the dog the unwanted behaviour is the growling and not the aggression? Can this lead to him learning not to show warning signs before aggression? Sorry if this is a stupid question just trying to get and understanding.

IMO first step is to teach the dog there is another way - IOW, teach a behaviour the dog can come to learn as a default coping behaviour. That is not wisely done by merely correcting the aggression and is not something I would recommend. I won't suggest to people over the internet on what to do with their dogs in matters of aggression - unwise because whatever I suggest may not be suitable for the individual dog, or the handler may not be able to handle it properly (or by the mere fact that she can't be shown how to do it so may do it all wrong with wrong timing etc). I have corrected some dogs for the exhibition of aggression but that has been somewhat further down the track in the behaviour modification program and not every dog - and even then, as I said, it is not something I easily or readily recommend.

I would recommend your friend consults with a private trainer/behaviourist who is knowledgeable/experienced in dog behaviour, esp. aggression.

How did the trainer you mention come to the conclusion that "this behaviour will get better with time [but] never go away"?

Thanks for the reply Ernie. What you say makes a lot of sense. I agree that suggestions over the internet for a dog you havent seen arent the best thing, I just really wanted to know if she was going down the right track with what she was doing which youve answered so thanks. And no offense to my friend but she really needs some help on how to handle/train the dog as well so she really needs to see someone.

Just got to talk her into going to see a private trainer when this other trainer is telling her something different and its a behviour not to worry about

To answer your question about this other trainer - I took my dog along to this training with her to see what he was like. At the end of the session he asked me if I thought Kaisers (dog in question) behaviour (aggression) would go away. I said I dont know, probably not without the right training and handling (Im certainly no expert!). His answer was that training has nothing to do with it and that his aggression will always be a part of who he is but his owner can be taught how to deal with it and it will get better in time. But as I said it will always be a part of him under the surface if you know what I mean. He then went on to tell my friend that it was certainly nothing to worry about. Dont know about him but i was certainly worried when Kaiser attacked my girl last week, he was definitly getting serious about it just lucky she was placid and didnt really react.

Im making this trainer sound like a dick but he honestly wasnt that bad I just get the sense he may be a little inexperinced particularly with this issue. He was good at helping me learn how to manage my girls excitiment so that was good.

BTW sorry to butt in on this thread

[Kelpie-i]

Corvus: The topic is, can you train a dog to stop showing signs of aggression without fixing the aggression itself. I used my dogs as examples only.

I'm reading this thread with interest.....the answer to your last question Corvus is NO! Removing the symptom without removing the cause is asking for deep trouble...like a hidden time bomb that you'll never go when it will go off.

laerel: His answer was that training has nothing to do with it and that his aggression will always be a part of who he is but his owner can be taught how to deal with it and it will get better in time. But as I said it will always be a part of him under the surface if you know what I mean. He then went on to tell my friend that it was certainly nothing to worry about. Dont know about him but i was certainly worried when Kaiser attacked my girl last week, he was definitly getting serious about it just lucky she was placid and didnt really react.

This trainer is only partly correct and it would depend heavily on circumstances. If the behaviour is due to genetics, then yes, you will never remove the hard wired tendency for aggression, not matter what you do. "Tendency" being the operative word here not the act of aggression itself. Although you can certainly modify it to a manageable state with the correct counter-conditioning methods and training.

If the behaviour is learned, then it can be modified with a high degree of success but the handler must never become complacent.

If the behaviour is due to a bad association, the above also applies.

In all three scenarios, the aggression will always hold a card in the dog's inbuilt filing system, with varying degrees depending on the circumstances, however this is not a reason to merely let things go and hope for the best. As I mentioned, proper training and counter conditioning will help immensly in all 3 scenarios.

As far as the trainer advising your friend to apply corrections whenever the dog shows aggressive behaviour, then my answer to Corvus above will apply. The services of a professional behaviour specialist will be the call here.

[Erny]

Erny, I know you didnt want to elaborate but I have heard this before and it confuses me. I cant imagine what behaviour could be a default coping behavior. Can you possible just explain that?

Turning its back/going away from what it fears might be a "default coping" behaviour or strategy, for example. Or looking at its owner when it is worried about something. As to what is done (and there can be many different variations to it - what is chosen depends on dog and dog/handler combo.) You need to show/teach the dog that behaviour first so the dog can begin to understand that the lunging/aggression is not the reason he/she survives/stays unscathed.

[dee lee]

Erny, I know you didnt want to elaborate but I have heard this before and it confuses me. I cant imagine what behaviour could be a default coping behavior. Can you possible just explain that?

Turning its back/going away from what it fears might be a "default coping" behaviour or strategy, for example. Or looking at its owner when it is worried about something. As to what is done (and there can be many different variations to it - what is chosen depends on dog and dog/handler combo.) You need to show/teach the dog that behaviour first so the dog can begin to understand that the lunging/aggression is not the reason he/she survives/stays unscathed.

Thanks Erny, that makes a lot of sense to me.