Stopping Aggression Or Stopping Signals?

[Steve K9Pro]

C: K9: wait & do things under the dogs terms?

Why not? They are good terms and fair. More sensible than my terms, as it turns out.

K9: Playing the "see what happens" game can only turn out two ways, good, or bad. Thats a 50% chance of something bad happening, most people wouldn't bet on those odds.

C: I was ready to break up a fight if it eventuated. I was ready to be bitten half to death in the process, in all honesty, because I wasn't sure how it would play but thought not well.

K9: why play then?

It seems crazy to me that you promote this type of thing?

You might be prepared to get bitten, break up a fight, but like I said, it is so much easier to avoid this?

I dont crash my car because I have an Ambulance on stand by?

C: Well, I've heard from other people that there are better ways than the alpha way as well.

K9: Some say pigs can fly too...

I wish you luck....

[Kavik]

Here's another example.

I took Diesel to obedience a little while ago. While waiting before class a lady with an off lead mini foxy type comes by (Diesel was on lead) and her dog came up to Diesel. Diesel being the more inquisitive of other dogs of my bunch, I let him say hi. The mini foxy started growling, so I called Diesel away as it was obviously not comfortable with a bigger dog saying hi. The owner said not to worry as her dog is often used to teach big dogs manners with little dogs, and would tell Diesel off if he was too much. Her dog continued to come up and then growl when Diesel went to sniff.

Now I don't understand why she would allow her dog to do this? Her dog was obviously not comfortable, and was not being at all polite. I was trying to do the polite thing and call my dog away when hers was unhappy. I would love it if people called their dog away if mine was not comfortable! If that dog meets a big dog that is not happy with being told off by a tiny little thing

[Miranda]

Thanks Miranda. Interesting.

I have been charged in a similar way to what you have described twice. Both times I jerked my dog aside at the last moment and was rescued before the dog could recover, once by the dog's owner and another by haring it out of the dog's territory. I was very lucky. I don't think there is a lot anyone can do when a dog is charging. Unless you carry a stout stick.

Even a stout stick won't stop a determined dog corvus. This dog took absolutely no notice of its owner who was trying to call it back, it just kept going. I've got pretty strong nerves and I don't scare easily, but I admit that I was terrified, I saw the dog flatten mine and I thought my boy was dead I really did. When I got him back there was a lot of saliva round his neck, a rip on his collar and one tooth mark, he was very lucky, if the other dog had been slimmer and fitter he'd have been in bad trouble.

You must have nerves of steel if you're prepared to allow dogs to work things out on their own, sure it might work most of the time, but if it doesn't there could be tragic consequences and personally I won't put my dogs at risk under any circumstances.

[corvus]

That's another interesting example, Kavik. I have never had that problem, but I did once have someone with a dog that seemed torn about whether it wanted to approach and say hi or make the other dogs stay away. It was one moment play-bowing and the next moment running away or lunging. It was pretty weird. The owners said she was getting over some sort of leash-related dog aggression, I think it was, and still had a ways to go. I'm not really sure what they were doing to help. They let the dog get close to mine, but increased the distance when she got funny. I won't say what I did or what my dogs did lest I be flamed for it, but I will say I wasn't the only one that was a bit confused. I'm don't think that one would have gone particularly well if the other dog was off leash.

K9, I noticed how you quoted everything but the part where I said I didn't think me moving my dog would have made any difference. Smooth. The other dog was not on a leash and on his home turf. None of us saw him until he was almost on us. Believe me, I would have preferred not to be taking a leap of faith at all, but things like this happen sometimes. I don't promote taking arbitrary chances. I do promote trusting a well-socialised dog. How many people have I seen hauling their dog across a road as soon as they see another dog on the horizon? They are so frightened of something bad happening that if they do ever meet a dog inevitably their worst fears play out.

[~*Shell*~]

Can those of you who do want to control all their dogs interactions with other dogs think of a time when they haven't been able to for some reason and what has happened as a result?

It's been a long time since it happened because Zero now looks at me when there's a situation he's not familiar with (you missed it on sunday morning but he and mistral didn't get along to start off with - Mist barked, Zero growled but there was no lunging, snapping or biting - couple of quick corrections when the growling started told Zero that it was not a welcome behaviour) but once he knows i don't have a problem with something, he doesn't have a problem with something (you would have seen them together happily later on in the day with mistral trying to edge closer to Zero when they were lying down and Zero happily letting him cuddle up to his side).

The times when i haven't been able to control Zero's interactions with dogs are the times when we've been rushed by off leash dogs on the street (quite a long time ago now) and Zero's gone to bite or lunge at them. Fortunately Zero never had the opportunity to bite one and as a result, we went out to see K9Force so now if Zero sees a strange dog on the street, I have him sit down and watch me, or i give him a command to walk in heel, turn in the other direction and walk away. If the other dog follows, I ignore it and keep Zero's attention on me - thankfully we know enough people in my area that there is always somewhere we can go behind a gate or a fence till the other dog goes away but if Zero ignores, the other dog tends not to follow.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: K9, I noticed how you quoted everything but the part where I said I didn't think me moving my dog would have made any difference. Smooth.

K9: Thanks, it was meant to be smooth...

I just didn't want to highlight again that I don't think you would know whether it would have made a difference or not.

How many people have I seen hauling their dog across a road as soon as they see another dog on the horizon? They are so frightened of something bad happening that if they do ever meet a dog inevitably their worst fears play out.

K9: but so far they haven't met a dog, right? Si far, noting bad has happened?, BUT, haven't your worst fears been played out?

I really cant offer you any more advice, it is too hard to break through your beliefs regardless of the outcomes your dog has suffered. Think over what everyone is saying

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

How many people have I seen hauling their dog across a road as soon as they see another dog on the horizon? They are so frightened of something bad happening that if they do ever meet a dog inevitably their worst fears play out.

Why would their fears inevitably affect the result of an interaction?

Perhaps, they have dog aggressive dogs? Perhaps they are cautious. But either way, what's so terrible about preventing a potentially bad interaction. All guts is what gets your dogs injured. I like my dogs in one piece.

I judge dogs and handlers as they approach. I look at the level of control the handler has over the dog. If I don't like what I see I cross the road.

If you don't gather your dog to your side and have it focus on you as you approach me, I'll cross the road. I've seen all I need to know that you have no intention of controlling your dogs interaction with mine.

So I put up with the "oh I think you're scaring the poodles" jibes from ignorant owners who allow their offlead, pilor erect, tail raised and stiffly wagging dogs to approach offlead because I know what I'm seeing. An ignorant owner who can't read a dog and that's got a dominant one not under control. I ignore the "he justs wants to say hello" crap because that's all it is.. crap.

I'll happily wear the 'coward' label if it keeps my dogs safe. They don't need to meet new dogs, they have plenty of dog friends now.

Edited October 14, 2008 by poodlefan

[Erny]

I do let my dogs call the shots sometimes. I am fully aware of when I do it and don't think that it's the evil a lot of people say it is.

You seem to be under some illusion that anyone who doesn't allow inappropriate aggression .... or the early warning signs of it, go untreated or uncontrolled, is also a person who never allows their dog the freedom to interact unimpeded? Maybe that's not the case, but by what you've written, that's certainly what you're implying intentionally or not. Either way, I'd suggest that you're incorrect in that assumption or implication. It is inappropriate interactions that the majority of people will assume control of and then work to discover why or how the inappropriate interactive behaviour developed and adjust whatever is necessary to improve it.

[corvus]

Miranda, after what we went through with Penny and the dog with no bite inhibition, I feel like I'm in a pretty well-informed position when it comes to dogs interacting. Seeing my girl hanging from another dog's jaws by her thigh was a horrifying experience. As was seeing tufts of her fur go flying when the other dog shook her. As was seeing how frightened she would be when she could see as well as we could that she was about to cop it and couldn't do a thing to stop it. It was all the worse because I loved the other dog dearly as well. If that dog had been bigger I have no doubt she would have killed my girl the first time it happened. But that dog was messed up. Really messed up. I don't often see dogs like that. Most dog spats I have seen have been all noise and might end with one dog lying on top of the other. The worst I've seen from a normal dog is a nick on the ear or nose. That's not to say I am in the least bit comfortable with dog fights. I'm not and I break them up if they are still going by the time I get there, and I step between the dogs if I think one is about to start in front of me. I haven't had to do that for years, though, and never with a dog I haven't known. It doesn't really take nerves of steel when it's all over with nothing but an air snap before you have a chance to do anything. Or better still, tension evaporates with an appropriate greeting. I've also seen a well-socialised dog do everything in its power to avoid a dog that is a bit messed up. They know. I don't have to tell them to stay away because they already are skirting around well outside the dog's range and carefully not making eye contact. I don't have nerves of steel, just trust that my dogs are not suicidal and don't want to start anything. Most dogs are not suicidal and don't want to start anything.

[Erny]

Well, I've heard from other people that there are better ways than the alpha way as well. You have to make your own judgements, which we all know.

Would be interested in knowing what "better ways" you've heard from other people?

And how come they haven't worked? If they were working your dog (yep ... you used as an example when you thought it suited you to do so, and I'm sorry, but a "hare" example doesn't cut it by comparison to a dog given we are talking 'dogs' here) then why is your dog still exhibiting the signs of being uncomfortable in an environment where she aughtn't have to feel uncomfortable?

... I would say I would be the best person to judge whether [my dog] is happy or stressed or whatever and why, seeing as she's been my best pal for the past 13 years. And that is the absolute last thing I'm saying on it.

You'd only be the "best person to judge" if you understood that the emotion of aggression (which I mean to include in relevant degrees the early warning signs of aggression) is not an enjoyable nor appetative one.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Erny

[corvus]

But what's inappropriate, Erny? I don't think air snaps are inappropriate in certain circumstances (they are in others), but I think making contact is usually inappropriate. Other people think showing teeth or raising hackles is inappropriate. Some people think a fixated stare or a growl is inappropriate. I would interrupt a fixated stare but not a growl unless it kept happening or whatever countless other exceptions I might make to that rule. In the end, everything is a case-by-case basis. As the one that doles out all the good things and the one with the leash in my hand, I get to say when I won't stand for something and that's that, but that's not to say I won't take into account what the dogs are all saying. If it seems fair I'm sympathetic. If it seems unfair I'm not as sympathetic. If there are things to account for unfairness I'm somewhere in the middle.

K9, I didn't think it would have because we were too close to the dog and too far from neutral territory when he showed up. If I could have made a safe escape I would have chosen that over a risk. But maybe now I wouldn't. Who can say? Depends on what all the dogs are doing and where we are. I wasn't actually asking for advice. I'm fine with the way things are here. I was asking for an opinion, which you have given. Thanks.

As for dogs getting hauled across the road, I can't be bothered going down yet another side-path. Suffice to say my partner and I always stop when we see another dog approaching and pull our dogs in so we are not taking up the entire footpath. They are not sitting perfectly at our feet, but sniffing around in the grass, usually. It seems a shame to me that what could be a chance for us to meet some dog owners and the dogs to practice polite greetings or even walking past other dogs without reacting turns into the sound of dog claws scrabbling on the road as the poor things get dragged by very tense owners to the other side of the road. I'm sure you all know that tension breeds tension.

[Erny]

But what's inappropriate, Erny? I don't think air snaps are inappropriate in certain circumstances (they are in others), but I think making contact is usually inappropriate.

No - that's not what I meant, Corvus. I mean showing aggression in a circumstance that doesn't deserve aggression. I don't mean about the 'right way to show aggression'.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

It seems a shame to me that what could be a chance for us to meet some dog owners and the dogs to practice polite greetings or even walking past other dogs without reacting turns into the sound of dog claws scrabbling on the road as the poor things get dragged by very tense owners to the other side of the road. I'm sure you all know that tension breeds tension

Maybe you should join a dog club. You'd get all that and more.

You'd also have a better idea of the vaccination status of the dogs you alllow yours to meet and greet.

Edited October 14, 2008 by poodlefan

[laeral]

Sorry to interrrupt but I have a question. I have posted a thread about my friends GSD pup who is showng quite a bit of dog agression when i noticed this thread. My friend has been taking her pup to puppy obedience classes and the trainer there has told her that this behaviour is nothing to overly stress about and that it will get better with time (never go away) and she will learn how to manage him.

What this trainer suggests is that every time he goes near another dog and starts growling she is to tell him to LEAVE IT, give him a correction with the lead and take him off in another direction. Then try again and repeat the process if he growls again. By doing this (correcting when he growls) is this telling the dog the unwanted behaviour is the growling and not the aggression? Can this lead to him learning not to show warning signs before aggression? Sorry if this is a stupid question just trying to get and understanding.

[poodlefan]

Sorry to interrrupt but I have a question. I have posted a thread about my friends GSD pup who is showng quite a bit of dog agression when i noticed this thread. My friend has been taking her pup to puppy obedience classes and the trainer there has told her that this behaviour is nothing to overly stress about and that it will get better with time (never go away) and she will learn how to manage him.

What this trainer suggests is that every time he goes near another dog and starts growling she is to tell him to LEAVE IT, give him a correction with the lead and take him off in another direction. Then try again and repeat the process if he growls again. By doing this (correcting when he growls) is this telling the dog the unwanted behaviour is the growling and not the aggression? Can this lead to him learning not to show warning signs before aggression? Sorry if this is a stupid question just trying to get and understanding.

Your understanding is correct IMO. This is certainly not the way I'd be dealing with the issue but I'll leave it to the experts from here.

[Erny]

Sorry to interrrupt but I have a question. I have posted a thread about my friends GSD pup who is showng quite a bit of dog agression when i noticed this thread. My friend has been taking her pup to puppy obedience classes and the trainer there has told her that this behaviour is nothing to overly stress about and that it will get better with time (never go away) and she will learn how to manage him.

What this trainer suggests is that every time he goes near another dog and starts growling she is to tell him to LEAVE IT, give him a correction with the lead and take him off in another direction. Then try again and repeat the process if he growls again. By doing this (correcting when he growls) is this telling the dog the unwanted behaviour is the growling and not the aggression? Can this lead to him learning not to show warning signs before aggression? Sorry if this is a stupid question just trying to get and understanding.

IMO first step is to teach the dog there is another way - IOW, teach a behaviour the dog can come to learn as a default coping behaviour. That is not wisely done by merely correcting the aggression and is not something I would recommend. I won't suggest to people over the internet on what to do with their dogs in matters of aggression - unwise because whatever I suggest may not be suitable for the individual dog, or the handler may not be able to handle it properly (or by the mere fact that she can't be shown how to do it so may do it all wrong with wrong timing etc). I have corrected some dogs for the exhibition of aggression but that has been somewhat further down the track in the behaviour modification program and not every dog - and even then, as I said, it is not something I easily or readily recommend.

I would recommend your friend consults with a private trainer/behaviourist who is knowledgeable/experienced in dog behaviour, esp. aggression.

How did the trainer you mention come to the conclusion that "this behaviour will get better with time [but] never go away"?

Edited October 14, 2008 by Erny

[Miranda]

Miranda, after what we went through with Penny and the dog with no bite inhibition, I feel like I'm in a pretty well-informed position when it comes to dogs interacting. Seeing my girl hanging from another dog's jaws by her thigh was a horrifying experience. As was seeing tufts of her fur go flying when the other dog shook her. As was seeing how frightened she would be when she could see as well as we could that she was about to cop it and couldn't do a thing to stop it. It was all the worse because I loved the other dog dearly as well. If that dog had been bigger I have no doubt she would have killed my girl the first time it happened. But that dog was messed up. Really messed up. I don't often see dogs like that. Most dog spats I have seen have been all noise and might end with one dog lying on top of the other. The worst I've seen from a normal dog is a nick on the ear or nose. That's not to say I am in the least bit comfortable with dog fights. I'm not and I break them up if they are still going by the time I get there, and I step between the dogs if I think one is about to start in front of me. I haven't had to do that for years, though, and never with a dog I haven't known. It doesn't really take nerves of steel when it's all over with nothing but an air snap before you have a chance to do anything. Or better still, tension evaporates with an appropriate greeting. I've also seen a well-socialised dog do everything in its power to avoid a dog that is a bit messed up. They know. I don't have to tell them to stay away because they already are skirting around well outside the dog's range and carefully not making eye contact. I don't have nerves of steel, just trust that my dogs are not suicidal and don't want to start anything. Most dogs are not suicidal and don't want to start anything.

Corvus from what I've gathered you allowed one of your two dogs to attack the other on more than one occasion which makes me think that you are actually ill informed regarding dog interaction. If the other dog was 'really messed up' you should have either consulted a professional, kept the dogs permanently separated or had the aggressor euthanased. Allowing the situation to continue was totally unacceptable IMO.

Regarding dog fights, if you are prepared to 'break them up if they are still going by the time I get there' or you 'step between the dogs if I think one is about to start in front of me' you have obviously never witnessed or been involved in a serious full on fight between two large, determined dogs. Dogs are capable of inflicting massive damage or even killing each other and some dogs just can't be separated, you can receive terrible injuries trying to break up two fighting dogs. Quite frankly I find the way you deal with dogs reckless and foolhardy and I wouldn't be at all surprised if a dog you own ends up seriously injured or incurs a dangerous dog declaration. Some of the things you come out with leave me speechless so I have nothing more to say.

[corvus]

Haha, Miranda, we did all three. A professional was consulted, the dogs were separated and the messed up dog was eventually euthanised. It was horrific and I don't usually like to talk about it much. Unfortunately I was away at uni for the worst of it, so I wasn't able to help much. We certainly didn't "let" one dog viciously attack another. We did not understand what we were dealing with, but we still managed to prevent a lot more than we missed. And that's all I'm saying about that.

I'm sorry you live in a world where apparently dogs are much more dangerous than the ones I routinely encounter. I have nothing more to say, either. I am never going to have two dogs of the same size and sex and I am never going to have a dog that I haven't socialised well. When I meet dogs like that I stay well away. This combination has worked pretty well so far! I am so over this topic, now. I'm sorry I ever brought it up. I'll wear a rubber band so I can snap myself next time I think "Hey, I wonder what DOLers think of that?".

[Erny]

I am so over this topic, now. I'm sorry I ever brought it up. I'll wear a rubber band so I can snap myself next time I think "Hey, I wonder what DOLers think of that?".

Corvus .... would you have been only happy to discuss provided everyone agreed with your thoughts?

The fact that they don't is perhaps something that you might like to ponder on.

[jaybeece]

Yes really. She has never CAUSED a fight with air snaps or growling. Air snaps and growling are a way to signal to another dog that you will start a fight if they don't heed you.

That is not to say she has never STARTED a fight. She has. When she has meant to. She has picked fights she shouldn't have and been beaten. She hasn't done that in a very long time. She accidentally caused fights with this crazy dog we had, but not with aggressive displays. I wish it had never happened but Penny was not at fault. She was the unfortunate victim.

Yikes, she's never caused a fight but she has started one? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

You place far too much faith a) in your dog's ability to judge body language (you said yourself that she's going blind too) and b) too much faith in the idea that other dogs are socialised enough to read and display appropriate body language.

You're right, she wasn't at fault, you were. If you see a dog approaching that you are unsure of regardless of what your dog thinks, you have got to have better judgement. My dog will display a mixed bag of body language while approaching another dog, but if they so much as stiffen up or stare he's likely to attack them because he beleves they're a threat and overreacts. Plenty of dogs have missed his tense body language entirely as many of them really don't get it as you seem to think they do. They're hundreds (even thousands?) of years away from their wolf ancestors and the combination of domestic life and poor socialisation often creates dogs that are not very socially aware.

Do you really want to trust that your dog can judge these dogs and visa versa? I don't. Actually, sorry, I DID. Now I have a fear aggressive dog. You're lucky that your dog is not very big and didn't learn that she could win every fight she was involved in or else you could easily have ended up where I am now.

Erny answered the question as to how you fix stuffed up warning signals. He's learning alternatives to aggression and also learning to trust me again.

Is it wrong to be okay with a dog that sometimes scraps harmlessly with other dogs she lives with?

IMO, yes. I don't accept scraps regardless of the reason. It means I'm doing something wrong and not managing the dogs properly so it's back to the drawing board to figure out a solution. Dogs fighting together in the house isn't something I see as a healthy and balanced situation.

For the record, my dog's only injured one other dog and that was when he had a fight with a dog next door (that the other dog actually started, mine shouldn't have been there though). Other than that, he's started fights and NEVER injured the other dog. Doesn't mean I don't have a problem on my hands.

No wait, I'm not done yet. Can those of you who do want to control all their dogs interactions with other dogs think of a time when they haven't been able to for some reason and what has happened as a result?

Yes. And now I have a mess to clean up.

A hypothetical dog that is not my own or any I have known might cause a fight they didn't intend by, say, staring directly when looking away might have made it all come to nothing.

Actually staring is very confrontational and I wouldn't say a dog who's doing it is being particularly friendly.

How many people have I seen hauling their dog across a road as soon as they see another dog on the horizon? They are so frightened of something bad happening that if they do ever meet a dog inevitably their worst fears play out.

Hmmm you don't really know much about this stuff do you? I "haul" my dog across the road when I see another dog coming because otherwise he'll end up going mad at them on the end of the lead. Not very constructive and it's not doing him any good being that stressed.

If I have to continue to do it for the rest of his life then so be it (unlikely though). I'd rather we have a peaceful walk then care about what other people think

when they see us crossing the road.

It seems a shame to me that what could be a chance for us to meet some dog owners and the dogs to practice polite greetings or even walking past other dogs without reacting turns into the sound of dog claws scrabbling on the road as the poor things get dragged by very tense owners to the other side of the road. I'm sure you all know that tension breeds tension.

What if instead of having a polite sniff the other dog tried to take your dog's head off? Or it barked and lunged in a way that made your dog immensly uncomfortable? If the alleged tense owners of these dogs have prevented an unpleasant reaction from their dog then I daresay that they did the right thing regardless of what you think. Can't say I'm particularly tense when I pull my dog away, but sometimes there is a bit of persuastion involved as when he's beginning to feel threatened he's not willing to do anything than fixate on the oncoming dog. I'd prefer to give him pops on the collar and keep pulling him away rather than risk an aggressive reaction from him.

You're absolutely entitled to your own beliefs Corvus, but I've met K9 Force, Erny and Cosmolo and these people know what they're talking about. I suggest you re-read what they've said to you as there's a hell of a lot of wisdom there.