Stopping Aggression Or Stopping Signals?

[corvus]

Sure Poodlefan, this is no news to me. She does sometimes appreciate being tucked between my feet or behind me where she is safe. I generally do that if she's starting to snap. As much as I've been okay with it all in the past, it doesn't take much provocation, now, and I think it's unfair on the puppies to cop it from her when they are trying to talk to Kivi who is much more fun and friendly. So I am actually often fending off the youngsters for her these days. She barks at me about it all, but at least she's not snapping at everyone. Things have changed, but that hasn't changed my beliefs. The dogs still tell me when they could do with a hand and until then I often leave them to it. Penny doesn't tell me as clearly anymore, but fortunately 13 years does teach you something about your dog, even if you were a teenager for most of those years. I wouldn't trust anyone else with her precisely because I know best when she would be happier if I took care of things.

I always think it goes without saying that you have to be flexible with animals, but I guess it doesn't go without saying. So consider this me acknowledging that you always have to be ready to change how you work with animals. Of course I don't expect my 13 year old, partially blind, arthritic corgi to behave the same way she did 5 years ago, and nor do I expect her judgement to be as good as ever. Sometimes she thinks standing in the middle of a pile of youngsters and growling at them all is a good plan, when it really isn't and you don't have to be good at body language to figure that one out. It's totally unfair for a youngster to cop it from her because another youngster pushed him into her when he was trying desperately to back-pedal before she has a go at him, so I don't let it happen if I can help it. There are always lots of exceptions. Let's not talk about them because they are a bit boring. I don't want to be here all day listing the times when I do step in and protect my dogs or take charge or whatever makes people happy.

[corvus]

Corvus you ask why you should stop Penny from air snapping/ warning with other dogs? My answer is simple- her doing that may get her into a fight with another dog who does not read the body language well or does not appreciate being 'told off' by an older weaker individual.

Ah, but she has been doing it for nearly 13 years and it has NEVER caused a fight. Why not? Because she doesn't do it when it would. She knows when it would and I don't. I repeat, NEVER has it started a fight. I couldn't say how many times she's done it, but I've seen her freeze and keep her eyes down and her lips firm around her teeth instead of snapping, and I've seen her dive behind my legs instead of snapping, and I've seen her turn her face away instead of snapping. She knows when it's a bad idea. I've had my heart in my mouth before trying to get between her and a much larger dog that looks like it means business before she could snap at it and failed only to see the dog go "Oh! Fair enough" and back off and leave her alone. I know some dogs would fight instead. And apparently she knows it too, because she's never started a fight that way and she doesn't do it to every dog that gets in her space. Surely the best thing I can do to prevent a fight is relax and try to avoid dogs that look like trouble. Which we do. But if we can't always avoid said dogs and me seeing danger where there is none is just going to make everyone more tense and might actually create a dog fight where there wasn't going to be one.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

Ah, but she has been doing it for nearly 13 years and it has NEVER caused a fight. Why not?

Really?

I think there were times I should have been more pro-active, particularly when she was recovering from really bad dog fights at home and was feeling particularly nervous around strange dogs

So you are saying that your dog never caused a fight yet managed to get involved more than one serious one? And you find that acceptable?

What I don't get is why you are allowing dogs to get so close in the first place? Sorry Corvus, but you 'non-interventionist' approach is highly unsafe. What happens when a dog does take offence to the snapping.

You should do a little more reading on what freezing means in terms of dog behaviour too.

Edited October 14, 2008 by poodlefan

[corvus]

I don't know if you've ever been involved in a full blown dog fight, but I have and I will do everything I can to avoid them, this includes controlling my dogs' interactions with other dogs, especially dogs I don't know.

Didn't I mention that dog that nearly took Penny's eye out?? That war of attrition went on for months. It sure turned me off getting another rescue and I will never again pair two dogs the same sex and similar weight no matter what the breeds. As I've mentioned, I actually think leaving my dogs to it IS the best thing I can do to avoid dog fights. Because I don't know the other dogs and what they are saying, but my dogs do know what they are saying. Even when they're weird and are saying two conflicting things.

Am I really going to have to sit here and defend myself all day? There are always exceptions. My mother has a dog that walks around with her head in the clouds and doesn't deal with tension very well. I would never trust her to work things out with strange dogs (although I understand even she is much better at it than she looks), but my dogs are sensible and I know them and I am confident they can be trusted.

Cosmolo, I really am not going to sit here and list all the exceptions to every generalisation I've ever made and am yet to make. I have pet rabbits! I am hardly going to enjoy watching dogs rip them apart! What kind of person do you think I am??

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

As I've mentioned, I actually think leaving my dogs to it IS the best thing I can do to avoid dog fights.

Pity it hasn't worked.

Edited October 14, 2008 by poodlefan

[Cosmolo]

Normal natural dog behaviour involves fights with other animals. YOU state that you don't want to stop them from doing this. If you make a statement, i am not going to dissect it as i don't know you and can't decipher every possible meaning. I will take the statement on face value- which is why generalisations on online forums are probably best avoided without clarification.

I trust my dogs too- but i don't let them 'sort thing out' because they trust me too- and i don't want to lose that.

[corvus]

Corvus:

Ah, but she has been doing it for nearly 13 years and it has NEVER caused a fight. Why not?

Really?

I think there were times I should have been more pro-active, particularly when she was recovering from really bad dog fights at home and was feeling particularly nervous around strange dogs

So you are saying that your dog never caused a fight yet managed to get involved more than one serious one? And you find that acceptable?

Yes really. She has never CAUSED a fight with air snaps or growling. Air snaps and growling are a way to signal to another dog that you will start a fight if they don't heed you. It is also a way of signalling how motivated you are to take things to the next level. They don't cause fights in of themselves unless you've got a dog that refuses to acknowledge that another dog might not like something. Got one of them at home, too. Needless to say, Penny doesn't make aggressive displays at him. She relies on people to protect her. Which they do.

That is not to say she has never STARTED a fight. She has. When she has meant to. She has picked fights she shouldn't have and been beaten. She hasn't done that in a very long time. She accidentally caused fights with this crazy dog we had, but not with aggressive displays. I wish it had never happened but Penny was not at fault. She was the unfortunate victim.

I could count the fights Penny has deliberately instigated on one hand, I think. I haven't tried it. It's been a long 13 years. She's not a warmonger, though. The only serious fights she's been involved in have been with one screwed up dog with no bite inhibition and abnormal responses that she lived with for 2 years. She's had a few other harmless scraps with dogs she has lived with. We've had a few near misses with territorial dogs charging, but that's hardly her fault. I don't remember any time she has picked a fight with a strange dog. It has probably happened, but if it has, it was a long time ago and it wasn't serious or I would remember it. Yes, I find this acceptable. Is it wrong to be okay with a dog that sometimes scraps harmlessly with other dogs she lives with? For the most part, she avoids conflict, which is why she doesn't tend to pick fights with strange dogs which is why I trust her judgement. Am I making myself clear yet? Have I ever been clear? Will I ever be clear?

[Cosmolo]

I have 3 bitches and a dog and they never engage in a fight- nor would i find this acceptable. They regularly have foster dogs or family dogs come to stay and again- no fights. They have no need to engage in a fight. So i guess we will have to agree to disagree

Penny has never caused a fight but has started one? That doesn't make sense to me.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

I could count the fights Penny has deliberately instigated on one hand, I think. I haven't tried it. It's been a long 13 years. She's not a warmonger, though. The only serious fights she's been involved in have been with one screwed up dog with no bite inhibition and abnormal responses that she lived with for 2 years. She's had a few other harmless scraps with dogs she has lived with. We've had a few near misses with territorial dogs charging, but that's hardly her fault. I don't remember any time she has picked a fight with a strange dog. It has probably happened, but if it has, it was a long time ago and it wasn't serious or I would remember it. Yes, I find this acceptable. Is it wrong to be okay with a dog that sometimes scraps harmlessly with other dogs she lives with? For the most part, she avoids conflict, which is why she doesn't tend to pick fights with strange dogs which is why I trust her judgement. Am I making myself clear yet? Have I ever been clear? Will I ever be clear?

Not to me. I don't consider any 'scrap' that results in injury to be acceptable whether its within my household or from a strange dog.

Sounds to me like your dog has learned that fighting is an acceptable way to deal with unwanted aggression. Clever dog. Now ask yourself what you could have done differently so she never had to learn that.

Sorry Corvus, you may have a degree in zoology but your acceptance of aggression towards and from your dogs makes me shake my head. Dogs injuring each other is not normal in the dog households I know and certainly not tolerated in mine.

[Miranda]

Am I making myself clear yet? Have I ever been clear? Will I ever be clear?

No you're not making yourself clear to me, but then I manage my dogs very differently. I don't know how long you've had dogs, but you appear to have had many, many more fights and 'near misses' than I have in over 30 years of owning multiple dogs, up to 11 at any one time. I disagree with the way you do things, but I don't think what I or anyone else says will make any difference to what you think, actually I wonder why you bothered starting this topic.

[corvus]

When did this become flame Corvus for daring to have differing views about dog aggression? This is a hypothetical thread. It is not about my dogs or my methods. The topic is, can you train a dog to stop showing signs of aggression without fixing the aggression itself. I used my dogs as examples only.

And Poodlefan, it quite clearly did work. It was the other dog that did the damage, not Penny. Penny's scraps have never resulted in any injuries. Don't pass judgements on me and my methods when all you know is a couple of things gleaned from a post not even about my dogs and my methods. How rude. If you want to argue the matter further, take it to PM.

Everyone else, can we stop flaming me and actually stick to the topic, which, I repeat, is HYPOTHETICAL. My dogs are no longer under discussion and I will stop using them as examples seeing as it has caused so much trouble. I'll use my hare instead (where's the devil smiley-face, goddamit?)

In fact, perhaps I've got all the answers I need and I'll slink off and once again slap myself for asking a potentially controversial question for the sake of interesting discussion. It's not very interesting when everyone is just telling me I'm wrong and stating facts without backing it up with anything.

No wait, I'm not done yet. Can those of you who do want to control all their dogs interactions with other dogs think of a time when they haven't been able to for some reason and what has happened as a result?

Edited October 14, 2008 by corvus

[Kavik]

I don't get how she started fights but didn't cause them?

Despite Zoe being dog aggro, I have not had any fights between my own dogs that resulted in injury more serious than a toothmark on the nose.

I have had Zoe seriously attacked by another dog on a walk (that was by itself while Zoe was on lead) that resulted in thousands of dollars of vet bills, and Diesel got an ear torn by another dog while staying with his breeder (I wasn't there so don't know the whole story on that one).

[poodlefan]

Corvus, this isn't a hypothetical. You posted about your dogs, the dog fights they've been involved in and your concerns about escalating signals of aggression.

I don't do PMs about topics that are publicly posted.

I've quoted what you've told us and commented. If you choose to allow your dogs to display aggressive behaviour towards each other and other dogs, then you can hardly be surprised that, confronted with a situation that stresses them, they do what they know best.

And that's what you've taught them. They won't look to you for protection when you've never protected them in the past. You said so yourself.

Damn right it's controversial.. dogs die every day because they do what's natural.. they bite. BSL, dangerous dogs laws, dog attacks, all result from dogs displaying perfectly natural behaviour that owners have failed to control.

Oh, the one time I couldn't stop a dog attacking mine, I kicked the crap out of it. Personally I think I may have saved my dogs life. The owner thought his dog was playing when it picked my dog up in his jaws and shook him hard enough to throw him some distance and sprain his hip. Of course, that was also quite natural predatory behaviour.

Edited October 14, 2008 by poodlefan

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: really, how do you know he knows that, I am fascinated.

When he was new to it all he stuck close to me and came back to me when he got worried. Whenever he did that, I made sure he remained unmolested until he was confident enough to leave my umbrella of safety again. I'm pleased by how he's handling other dogs at this point. He is good with all kinds of dogs, including ones that seem a bit cranky. He hasn't come running back to me for a while. I take this to mean he is confident enough without me. Good for him.

K9: You made the comparison between a child & dogs earlier, this seems to me that you would expose your child to all manner of undesirables just so they could learn to cope on their own?

C: Sorry, you're wrong. I just brought my dogs into it as examples and it somehow ended up being about my dogs. I was having a similar discussion on another board started by someone else and was interested in widening the pool of experience a bit. I'm not bothered by aggressive signals when they don't escalate past air snapping.

K9: if they don't escalate past air snapping, what does this mean?

From first post: I've always been quite happy to hear Penny's grumbles and whatnot. She's pretty vocal and she's very predictable in that she'll grumble, then lift her lip, then snarl, then air snap in that order before making contact with a dog.

K9: & this?

C: I think there were times I should have been more pro-active, particularly when she was recovering from really bad dog fights at home and was feeling particularly nervous around strange dogs

K9: You might be happy with your dogs behaviour in this situation but I wonder if your dog is happy with the situation? I wonder when an old dog gets relieved of duties rather than spending a lifetime trying to keep all manner of dogs in line...

I wonder if your aware that some of your dogs "natural" reactions could see it declared dangerous.

C: Yeah well, each to their own. Like I said, I will be at your doorstep if it turns out I was wrong.

K9: I think its is easier to avoid problems rather than take risks, create them then try & cure them.

C: One time Penny was on leash and a dog came rushing towards her. I thought it looked like trouble so I started pulling Penny away, but Penny didn't think it looked like trouble and resisted me, so I stopped and let her do what she wanted to do, which was to stand stock still until this dog had checked her out and she could tell him she was no threat, but no push-over either. It made me realise I could never read a dog that well,

K9: It conveys to me your dog does not at all consider you a leader. You played the "see what happens game". Say she had resisted being pulled away, you stopped, the other dog came over & she attacked it, what now?

You cant say "I knew she wouldn't" you just wrote you cant read a dog that well?

What would have happened if she had stood there just as she did, & the other dog attacked & killed her?

Why wait & do things under the dogs terms?

C: so what business do I have dictating how she handles a situation she understands better than I do?

K9: Its your business under several headings, Alpha, Leader, Responsible dog owner, Protector of your pack.

C: Even if you do subscribe to pack theory, you might be aware that in wolf packs, leaders defer to others in the pack in different situations where they might know better than the leader. What business does any leader have taking charge of situations that another member understands better? Surely a bit of respect goes a long way? It's not like Penny NEVER needs me. She knows when she's out of her depth and she dives behind my legs and I take that as my cue to take charge. I also take charge when she is rooted to the spot in terror because a large dog is charging her, which has happened twice and led to me dumping check chains. When she's scared, she looks to me for direction and again I take charge. But if she's not looking at me for help, why do I need to interfere?

K9: Cant see why she would be rooted to the spot in terror when she can read & handle dogs so well?

C: Thing is, if a dog can read a dog better than I can, then why shouldn't I take my cues from my dogs rather than the strange one? I know them pretty darn well, and they can tell me if I'm needed or not. Why should they need me every time? Why should someone who doesn't know dogs as well as they do be deciding when they need back-up?

K9: You keep saying the same thing, it has been explained several times now.

C: Anyway, one thing raising a wild hare taught me was that I might be pretty good at reading animal body language for a human, but I am still woefully bad at it next to an animal. Having a hare invent exaggerated gestures for you because you're so slow is a humbling experience and I've come to trust my animals more as a result. As long as I give them all the opportunities to learn safely how to read a variety of dogs and people and other animals, then I will be in a good position to quietly use them as a crutch in my decision-making, which I secretly think everyone should be doing because they know what they're doing better than we do

K9: I really find it difficult when people start bringing in other species, one because I am a Canine Behaviour Specialist & the other is because no other animal is like a dog.

C: So this is off-topic, but how can I expect my dogs to respect my decisions if they obviously know better than me and always will when it comes to other dogs? They aren't silly. Penny knows I suck. She gives me that "oh god, how embarressing" look when I muscle in on her when she had it covered. Isn't it better to sneakily wait until they make a decision and then put a name to it and praise them?

K9: Your not making any decisions, your letting her do it, thats why she thinks you suck (your words).

Look, these are your dogs, you are free to do as you feel is best, no matter what anyone says, but that may not be the best for your dogs or other peoples.

I personally feel that your letting your dog call the shots your allowing this to water down your alpha status, which puts a heavier responsibility on your dog, which at 13 I really feel is not fair.

There are better ways, we know better now, lets use this information to guide us to better lives with our dogs...

Edited October 14, 2008 by K9 Force

[Cosmolo]

Nope- can't think of a time when i haven't been able to protect my dogs. But by being a good leader- if they are ever in that position they are much less likely to engage in a fight than dogs who have learned to deal with it themselves through aggression. I have a very happy well adjusted pack.

The initial posts to your topic were on topic and answered the question- You took it OT by bringing your dogs and actions into the mix.

[corvus]

Sorry, I think of starting fights and causing fights as different things. A hypothetical dog that is not one of mine or any I have known might start a fight by taking it beyond air snaps and making contact. A hypothetical dog that is not my own or any I have known might cause a fight they didn't intend by, say, staring directly when looking away might have made it all come to nothing.

I think of starting a fight as deliberate and causing a fight as accidental. But hey, who am I to judge when the world is full of dog owners that think themselves better at reading dog body language than dogs are?

Okay, that was unfair. I don't know what they think. I just accept my very human shortcomings.

[poodlefan]

Sorry, I think of starting fights and causing fights as different things. A hypothetical dog that is not one of mine or any I have known might start a fight by taking it beyond air snaps and making contact. A hypothetical dog that is not my own or any I have known might cause a fight they didn't intend by, say, staring directly when looking away might have made it all come to nothing.

I think of starting a fight as deliberate and causing a fight as accidental. But hey, who am I to judge when the world is full of dog owners that think themselves better at reading dog body language than dogs are?

Okay, that was unfair. I don't know what they think. I just accept my very human shortcomings.

Personally I'm more concerned with that fact that fights happen. It's been said before.. people can spend a lot of energy analysing the 'whys' of dog aggression but its the outcomes that affect dogs and people most seriously.

However, let me tell you that it is quite unusual for a well socialised, well trained dog to have a fight history these days. Most owners go out of their way to avoid them.

[Miranda]

No wait, I'm not done yet. Can those of you who do want to control all their dogs interactions with other dogs think of a time when they haven't been able to for some reason and what has happened as a result?

Yes twice. I was walking one of my bitches off leash and came around a corner and met a dog I didn't know. The dogs sniffed each other as per normal and when my girl went to move off the other dog attacked her. My girl ran and the other dog gave up and ran back to his owner. Very strange because the dog that attacked was a male.

The other time was quite recent, I was playing ball with one of my boys at the park and a person approached with two dogs on lead, when they saw my dog they started barking and growling. Before I could call my boy the larger of the two dogs lunged, pulled his owner flat on his face and raced straight over to my dog knocking him over and pinning him by the throat. Somehow my boy got out from under him and ran for his life with the other dog hot on his heels. Luckily my dog is a running breed and he simply outran the other dog, he was chased out of the park and along the road before the other dog gave up, had he been caught I dread to think what would have happened as my dog's no fighter and this dog was extremely aggressive. I was also lucky that it was quite warm and the other dog being much more solid just ran out of breath and energy.

At home I've had very few fights and all were caused by my carelessness and temporary lack of supervision, once between two males over a bitch in season and the others were between pre-season bitches over food that had been left out.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Miranda

[corvus]

C: Sorry, you're wrong. I just brought my dogs into it as examples and it somehow ended up being about my dogs. I was having a similar discussion on another board started by someone else and was interested in widening the pool of experience a bit. I'm not bothered by aggressive signals when they don't escalate past air snapping.

K9: if they don't escalate past air snapping, what does this mean?

I take it to mean they don't need to do anything else because whatever the pressure was has been removed. What do you take it to mean?

From first post: I've always been quite happy to hear Penny's grumbles and whatnot. She's pretty vocal and she's very predictable in that she'll grumble, then lift her lip, then snarl, then air snap in that order before making contact with a dog.

K9: & this?

Making contact? I would take that to mean the dog's warnings haven't been heeded. For the record, I don't personally see it go that far very often. Won't mention my own dogs as I've vowed off it.

Why wait & do things under the dogs terms?

Why not? They are good terms and fair. More sensible than my terms, as it turns out. I was ready to break up a fight if it eventuated. I was ready to be bitten half to death in the process, in all honesty, because I wasn't sure how it would play but thought not well. I don't think pulling my dog away at the time would have made much differene except for perhaps presenting an easy target in an unbalanced dog, which is one of the reasons why I stopped doing it. I wasn't convinced at the time that my dog would not start a fight, as it happens, but sometimes I think it helps a relationship to take a leap of faith. I was right there if my leap of faith had fallen short, and ready to do whatever would have been necessary. The risk, I judged, was medium, no better or worse than if we did things my way.

I personally feel that your letting your dog call the shots your allowing this to water down your alpha status, which puts a heavier responsibility on your dog, which at 13 I really feel is not fair.

There are better ways, we know better now, lets use this information to guide us to better lives with our dogs...

Well, I've heard from other people that there are better ways than the alpha way as well. You have to make your own judgements, which we all know.

I do let my dogs call the shots sometimes. I am fully aware of when I do it and don't think that it's the evil a lot of people say it is. No more discussing my dog, but I would say I would be the best person to judge whether she is happy or stressed or whatever and why, seeing as she's been my best pal for the past 13 years. And that is the absolute last thing I'm saying on it.

[corvus]

Thanks Miranda. Interesting.

I have been charged in a similar way to what you have described twice. Both times I jerked my dog aside at the last moment and was rescued before the dog could recover, once by the dog's owner and another by haring it out of the dog's territory. I was very lucky. I don't think there is a lot anyone can do when a dog is charging. Unless you carry a stout stick.