Stopping Aggression Or Stopping Signals?

[corvus]

This is an old discussion I'm curious to hear people comment on.

If you train a dog not to growl/snarl/grumble/raise hackles etc through corrections, is it possible that you may train the dog simply not to do any of those things in warning and leave it no other option but to go straight for the bite?

I've always been quite happy to hear Penny's grumbles and whatnot. She's pretty vocal and she's very predictable in that she'll grumble, then lift her lip, then snarl, then air snap in that order before making contact with a dog. There's lots of other more subtle things she does, but she gives ample warning. Some people have argued to me that I shouldn't tolerate any signs of aggression. By their reasoning, when you stop the signals you stop the whole behaviour because they are as one. By my reasoning, if you stop the signals then that's all you stop because the signals and the feelings that spark aggression can exist without one another. A few people have told me that they think their dogs reacted to being corrected for growling etc by bottling up their fury and then releasing it unexpectedly with little warning. Someone else told me that if you distract the dog at earlier signs, or when the dog first becomes stressed, you can have some success that way, but that if you come in late when the dog is actually talking pretty loudly and clearly that you can turn them into a silent fear biter.

Just interested to know if anyone has any experience or stories to make them lean one way or the other.

[Erny]

Inappropriate aggression should always be 'treated', but done improperly it can result in the dog not understanding that the aggression is unwanted, but that the signals of aggression are unwanted, which of course as you suspect, is not what we want.

But the 'warning' signals of aggression are exactly that - a warning that overt aggression is imminent and therefore, assuming the threat of aggression is inappropriate, should not go untreated. All that you are ensuring there is that the aggression is likely to escalate to more serious advances.

If your dog is exhibiting warning signals of impending aggression in what would be considered inappropriate circumstances, I would recommend you engage some professional assistance NOW, before the behaviour escalates and a higher level of and/or more aggressive behaviour becomes learnt.

Edited October 13, 2008 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

As kelpie i mentioned in another thread- when correcting for aggression its important that the dog has been taught an alternate behaviour and i think if this is done correctly that correcting at the beginning of the aggressive sequence should not result in biting without warning.

There can also be damage done by trying to correct towards the end of an aggressive behaviour sequence and inadvertently loading the dog and desensitising them to a correction.

I want my dogs to let me know in other ways that they are uncomfortable so that i can remove them and intervene, before there is a need to show any aggression.

[corvus]

I think "inappropriate" signals of aggression is where it gets a little complicated. Penny is nearly 13 years old and has had all manner of dogs in her life over the years. She is now a lot less tolerant than she used to be. I am okay with that, as she is a bit sore these days and can't see very well and she feels she needs to be very clear about what she likes and what she doesn't like very early. She seems happier if she's allowed to do this than if I, say, tuck her between my legs where she can't get in anyone's way. She's a bit passive aggressive that way. Anyway, Penny rarely starts fights but is very good at preventing them, and I've seen her keep herself safe and comfortable by using aggressive displays to buy herself space from a dog she has only just met. I have never ever seen her start a fight this way. She's not trying to start a fight. She's trying to tell this dog that they are too close to her.

On the other hand, we had a dog some time ago when she was younger with an unknown upbringing. When this dog fought, she didn't hold back and Penny ended up at the vets more than once and nearly lost an eye once. She had a screw loose, this dog, but my mother and I got very good at seeing the tiny warning signs and diving for her collar. She didn't tend to growl or lift her lip. Sometimes the hackles would come up, but usually it was too late by then. She would become a little stiff and get this look about her and you knew you were lucky if you had more than a couple of seconds to do something before you might be heading to the vets again. I actually think she gave less warning as time went on, but it sure would have been handy if at any time she gave a bit of a growl before she went troppo. I don't think we ever really corrected her because we never really had time to do anything but hope we could get to her before she got to Penny. It was hard even to say what would trigger it.

Penny knows there are times when aggression is inappropriate, but even so, she rarely makes contact and when she does she doesn't do any damage. Is there any argument for allowing a well socialised dog that doesn't do physical damage to dictate the terms of her interactions with other dogs using aggressive signals? Now given, I don't stand by and let her bully the pup because it's not fair on him to live in fear or cop it over nothing more than a moment of frustation for Penny, but at the same time, he's got to learn when it's not a good idea to approach her. I find myself walking a bit of a tight rope trying to keep aggression at a level where I feel it's serving a purpose and not doing any psychological or physical damage. Aggression is, after all, the way that dogs tell each other where the line is. It serves to prevent fights. A fight is supposed to be what happens when the aggressive signals were not heeded. I've seen aggression escalate, and I believe it can become a learned response, but in a healthy, well-socialised dog, it seems to serve a purpose in keeping the peace.

[Cosmolo]

I don't have an issue with well socialised dogs WITH bite inhibition 'telling a dog off'. There are occassions when i would use one of my dogs to do this but there are so many variables involved. I don't consider a 'fight' to be appropriate though and in the social context that we now keep our dogs- this is never allowed IMO. Big difference between a dog giving a 'correction' (telling off) and an engaged fight

[~*Shell*~]

Zero has a lot of signs before he even starts to growl. His eyes get a funny look to them (fixation) and then his ears flatten. He is allowed to look, he is allowed to flatten his ears but the first sign of outward aggression is the growl which he is not allowed to do. The eyes and the ears are enough to give another dog a warning before the growl starts - which is why i allow them. The growling, lunging and snarling is not.

Luckily Zero knows what he is and isn't allowed to do and usually his growls are only a warning when he doesn't like what another dog is doing to him (generally licking his face or jumping up on him, trying to get him to play with them).

I didn't see anything wrong with Penny's behaviour on the weekend - as you said, she is older, in some pain and unless she saw the other dog as a threat (Zero and Lestat weren't about to jump on her so she didn't have a problem with them, even though they were bigger than the other, playful dogs there) she didn't show signs of aggression. In fact, she didn't care when Zero sniffed her, or looked her straight in the face. Zero doesn't like other dogs jumping on him and he doesn't have problems health-wise - totally understandable in my opinion!

[Steve K9Pro]

If you train a dog not to growl/snarl/grumble/raise hackles etc through corrections, is it possible that you may train the dog simply not to do any of those things in warning and leave it no other option but to go straight for the bite?

K9: Not only is it possible but quite common, its something you definitely want to avoid though as those signs prior to aggression are our keys indicators on how we rehabilitate these dogs.

I've always been quite happy to hear Penny's grumbles and whatnot. She's pretty vocal and she's very predictable in that she'll grumble, then lift her lip, then snarl, then air snap in that order before making contact with a dog. There's lots of other more subtle things she does, but she gives ample warning.

K9: The concern with this isn't in the dogs behaviour but in yours, your dog is behaving this way as it is feeling undesirable pressure & is left to deal with this pressure (by the Alpha). This is a very common thing to occur but it usually ends up in a ggressive dog at some point.

Some people have argued to me that I shouldn't tolerate any signs of aggression. By their reasoning, when you stop the signals you stop the whole behaviour because they are as one.

K9: they are wrong.

Someone else told me that if you distract the dog at earlier signs, or when the dog first becomes stressed, you can have some success that way, but that if you come in late when the dog is actually talking pretty loudly and clearly that you can turn them into a silent fear biter.

K9: This person was correct but its not about distracting as much is it is about controlling & protecting.

This is of course not talking about three of your own dogs in a pack but dogs your dog meets outside of your home.

Edited October 13, 2008 by K9 Force

[corvus]

If you train a dog not to growl/snarl/grumble/raise hackles etc through

I've always been quite happy to hear Penny's grumbles and whatnot. She's pretty vocal and she's very predictable in that she'll grumble, then lift her lip, then snarl, then air snap in that order before making contact with a dog. There's lots of other more subtle things she does, but she gives ample warning.

K9: The concern with this isn't in the dogs behaviour but in yours, your dog is behaving this way as it is feeling undesirable pressure & is left to deal with this pressure (by the Alpha). This is a very common thing to occur but it usually ends up in a ggressive dog at some point.

Well, this has been an area of heated discussion as well. I don't care to open the can of worms about dogs and hierarchies again, but suffice to say I have my reasons for disbelieving it. I also have my reasons for disagreeing with this assertion. The chief being whenever I've tried to step in Penny has stepped back around me as if to say "thanks, but no thanks". I'm afraid she thinks I'm a bit of an amateur. I cramp her style because she can read dogs about a zillion times better than I can (and I did my honours thesis on animal behaviour!). It is my suspicion that one of the reasons she is so freaking awesome is because I was a kid when she was a youngster and I didn't know the first thing about stepping in, so she had to work it out for herself. She did so without starting any fights accidentally until she met this dog with the screw loose. She is a master at defusing tense situations with strange dogs. I can only admire her and feel proud of her.

Which brings me to my second main reason for letting my dogs deal with pressure. It is natural and they are capable of it. Kivi knows I am there for him whenever he makes an error in judgement, but truth be told he doesn't need me much. The dogs teach him everything he needs to know about dealing with pressure. The moment he looks for me I'm there, but if he's dealing with a tense moment on his own and doesn't feel like he needs me, then I'm a happy mum. After all, my greatest desire is for confident, well-balanced dogs that DON'T need me whenever there is a little tension. Kivi is an utter wuss and did need me a bit at the beginning, and if I ever had a more delicate or reactive dog I certainly would be helping them out more, but as long as they are safely in the realms of experiences that will teach but not traumatise I am fine with leaving them to it. I like to think I am fluent enough in dog to at least be able to tell when my own dogs need my support, but I am happy to say it's not often and I'm yet to see Kivi show the remotest sign of aggression. I'll happily admit I'm wrong and come to you for help if I ever find myself with a dog-aggressive canine as a result of this approach. Well, I won't be happy, but I'll admit I was very wrong. Anyway, my philosophy is that I can't be there to protect them every time they get cross or meet a bully. If you did that to a kid it would be frowned upon.

[Erny]

I disagree with you Corvus but just as you are entitled to your opinion, so are others and in fact I think that's what you were posting for?

I guess the 'proof is in the pudding' and the fact that your dog is feeling pressured at all enough to exhibit what I can only assume is inappropriate aggression (if it wasn't, I'm not entirely certain what we are discussing) does signal something amiss though - aggression is generally not an appetative emotion/behaviour. I am all the more concerned that your dog does not heed you when you do step in and that she is able to 'take over' the decision making process of a situation. All the more concerned that it seems you think this is ok and 'natural' for her to do?

Edited October 13, 2008 by Erny

[jaybeece]

I agree with you Erny (of course ), if I let the dogs here sort things out on their own then we'd have trouble. I have one very small old dog and one very large young dog and as I posted recently they have had their minor disagreements. They're fine now, I changed how I act a little and put more work into controlling both dogs and we have no problems now. I dropped the ball in terms of ensuring my dog wasn't too boisterous around the little one and wasn't watching enough for signs that he was uncomfortable. Both know with certainty now I'm here to look out for them and it shows.

It doesn't sound like Penny is really confident about other dogs around her anymore and if they don't get the hint then she'll be forced to take things further. Young dogs don't (in my experience) always take the hint very quickly which is why we as their pack leaders, owners, carers, whatever you want to call it, need to step in.

Whether you believe in this or not is fine, but I don't personally think you'll be doing her any favours by letting her settle things herself. You don't need to go crazy throwing your weight around, all it can take for example is to call the dog away that's upsetting her for her to know you've got her back. Even if as you've said she's spent her life looking after herself, it's never too late to help her out when she needs it.

As to the original question, I agree with what's already been said. Warnings are much better when you can see/hear them, you don't want a dog that's learned to stop showing warnings for fear of correction. I've had that happen with my dog to an extent and have to undo the damage which is much harder than preventing it in the first place.

Edited October 13, 2008 by jaybeece

[Jigsaw]

If you're finding it hard with the aggression give her some space from other younger dog, a respite so to speak. Make sure she has a separate sleeping area the pup can't get to so she can rest peacefully. She's old and if she's been doing it all her life she's not likely to get better but maybe even worse as her sight and hearing deteriorate.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Well, this has been an area of heated discussion as well. I don't care to open the can of worms about dogs and hierarchies again, but suffice to say I have my reasons for disbelieving it.

K9: & thats your choice of course, but it is fact.

I also have my reasons for disagreeing with this assertion. The chief being whenever I've tried to step in Penny has stepped back around me as if to say "thanks, but no thanks".

K9: This occurs as Penny doesn't regard you as the pack leader in tese circumstances.

I'm afraid she thinks I'm a bit of an amateur.

K9: I would suggest she has gained this from your actions, rather than hers.

I cramp her style because she can read dogs about a zillion times better than I can (and I did my honours thesis on animal behaviour!).

K9: Dogs will always read dogs better than humans will read dogs when ever they are reading with a clear head, if the dog in question though has a pre conceived idea of what will be read in the other dog, you will be surprised how often dog makes that happen.

This also isn't the only reason it is important to have the lead role, I might have replied to this thread in full defence & called you lots of names perhaps if I had felt threatened about something you have written, but of course the Alpha here is Troy who has set the rules. Do I read posters better than him in relation to dog questions? Probably, but its his leadership that keeps the board as good as it is today...

Same goes when it comes to you & your dog, if you sit back accepting that your dog handles things better than you & your dog can read other dogs better & make better decisions, thats just another way of saying your dog is your leader under these terms.

C: It is my suspicion that one of the reasons she is so freaking awesome is because I was a kid when she was a youngster and I didn't know the first thing about stepping in, so she had to work it out for herself.

K9: Hence no leadership.

C: She did so without starting any fights accidentally until she met this dog with the screw loose. She is a master at defusing tense situations with strange dogs. I can only admire her and feel proud of her.

K9: sounds great, but this is how she is supposed to think of you...

It is my suspicion that one of the reasons she is so freaking awesome is because I was a kid when she was a youngster and I didn't know the first thing about stepping in, so she had to work it out for herself. She did so without starting any fights accidentally until she met this dog with the screw loose. She is a master at defusing tense situations with strange dogs. I can only admire her and feel proud of her.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Which brings me to my second main reason for letting my dogs deal with pressure. It is natural and they are capable of it. Kivi knows I am there for him whenever he makes an error in judgement,

K9: really, how do you know he knows that, I am fascinated.

C: I like to think I am fluent enough in dog to at least be able to tell when my own dogs need my support, but I am happy to say it's not often and I'm yet to see Kivi show the remotest sign of aggression.

K9: I really mean no offence when I say this but, you are the one that come here & started a thread on stopping aggressive signals & asking (simple) questions on correcting early signs of aggression, I would think that if you did your honours in dog behaviour & are fluent in dog & had dogs that didnt show the remoteest signs of aggression, you wouldn't be asking? Correct me if I am wrong.

C: Anyway, my philosophy is that I can't be there to protect them every time they get cross or meet a bully.

K9: why? do your dogs roam the streets with out you?

If you did that to a kid it would be frowned upon.

K9: Maybe, but this is not a kid, its a dog, a pack animal that lives & dies by leadership & pack structure.

Edited October 13, 2008 by K9 Force

[corvus]

C: Which brings me to my second main reason for letting my dogs deal with pressure. It is natural and they are capable of it. Kivi knows I am there for him whenever he makes an error in judgement,

K9: really, how do you know he knows that, I am fascinated.

When he was new to it all he stuck close to me and came back to me when he got worried. Whenever he did that, I made sure he remained unmolested until he was confident enough to leave my umbrella of safety again. I'm pleased by how he's handling other dogs at this point. He is good with all kinds of dogs, including ones that seem a bit cranky. He hasn't come running back to me for a while. I take this to mean he is confident enough without me. Good for him.

C: I like to think I am fluent enough in dog to at least be able to tell when my own dogs need my support, but I am happy to say it's not often and I'm yet to see Kivi show the remotest sign of aggression.

K9: I really mean no offence when I say this but, you are the one that come here & started a thread on stopping aggressive signals & asking (simple) questions on correcting early signs of aggression, I would think that if you did your honours in dog behaviour & are fluent in dog & had dogs that didnt show the remoteest signs of aggression, you wouldn't be asking? Correct me if I am wrong.

Sorry, you're wrong. I just brought my dogs into it as examples and it somehow ended up being about my dogs. I was having a similar discussion on another board started by someone else and was interested in widening the pool of experience a bit. I'm not bothered by aggressive signals when they don't escalate past air snapping. As far as Penny is concerned, that's the whole point of aggressive signals. As far as I'm concerned, she can say it better than I can. I do bring Penny in close if she's stubbornly standing in the middle of a pile of youngsters demanding that they all mind her like some old cranky lady. Then she can sit next to me and tell me all about it. She is happy as long as I say "Yes Penny, I know, they shouldn't be having fun" or some such.

C: Anyway, my philosophy is that I can't be there to protect them every time they get cross or meet a bully.

K9: why? do your dogs roam the streets with out you?

If you did that to a kid it would be frowned upon.

K9: Maybe, but this is not a kid, its a dog, a pack animal that lives & dies by leadership & pack structure.

Yeah well, each to their own. Like I said, I will be at your doorstep if it turns out I was wrong. I don't let the dogs roam the streets without me, but they are together in the yard a lot without me, and they are often approached by other dogs when we walk off leash and they are far enough away from me that I would have to run to get to them before the dog. No need to add that kind of energy to a situation. I just call for them to hold up and they stop and look at the approaching dog and know instantly better than I do how they need to behave. One time Penny was on leash and a dog came rushing towards her. I thought it looked like trouble so I started pulling Penny away, but Penny didn't think it looked like trouble and resisted me, so I stopped and let her do what she wanted to do, which was to stand stock still until this dog had checked her out and she could tell him she was no threat, but no push-over either. It made me realise I could never read a dog that well, so what business do I have dictating how she handles a situation she understands better than I do? Even if you do subscribe to pack theory, you might be aware that in wolf packs, leaders defer to others in the pack in different situations where they might know better than the leader. What business does any leader have taking charge of situations that another member understands better? Surely a bit of respect goes a long way? It's not like Penny NEVER needs me. She knows when she's out of her depth and she dives behind my legs and I take that as my cue to take charge. I also take charge when she is rooted to the spot in terror because a large dog is charging her, which has happened twice and led to me dumping check chains. When she's scared, she looks to me for direction and again I take charge. But if she's not looking at me for help, why do I need to interfere?

Still waiting for Kivi to grow a backbone and so much as growl or look another dog in the eye. I don't know if we'll ever see it from him, but he's getting pretty good with other dogs. Thing is, if a dog can read a dog better than I can, then why shouldn't I take my cues from my dogs rather than the strange one? I know them pretty darn well, and they can tell me if I'm needed or not. Why should they need me every time? Why should someone who doesn't know dogs as well as they do be deciding when they need back-up? If a strange dog understands Penny's air-snap better then my body-blocking, and Penny is trying to snap but my legs are in the way, why shouldn't I step aside and let her snap? It buys her the space she wants much faster and more effectively than my legs can and it makes her feel pretty confident. Next time she meets a tense dog and I'm behind her, she doesn't need my legs to feel safe and makes a good decision instead of running back to me, which could be a bad decision. The more confident she is, the less she needs to snap, as we all know dogs respond to confidence, whether we believe in pack structure or not. Any animal responds to confidence.

Anyway, one thing raising a wild hare taught me was that I might be pretty good at reading animal body language for a human, but I am still woefully bad at it next to an animal. Having a hare invent exaggerated gestures for you because you're so slow is a humbling experience and I've come to trust my animals more as a result. As long as I give them all the opportunities to learn safely how to read a variety of dogs and people and other animals, then I will be in a good position to quietly use them as a crutch in my decision-making, which I secretly think everyone should be doing because they know what they're doing better than we do.

So this is off-topic, but how can I expect my dogs to respect my decisions if they obviously know better than me and always will when it comes to other dogs? They aren't silly. Penny knows I suck. She gives me that "oh god, how embarressing" look when I muscle in on her when she had it covered. Isn't it better to sneakily wait until they make a decision and then put a name to it and praise them? Or just develop a way to communicate to them so you can give them a heads up when a dog is coming in and let them know what you think of it and then continue letting them know what you think with voice suggestions ("wait", "okay", "gently" or whatever) as long as they are doing what you think they should be doing? I say "leave it" or "come away" a lot to Penny when we come across a dog that doesn't look friendly and she does, although I'm pretty sure she was going to all along, but at least I can praise her for something and make it into an "us" moment rather than a "her" moment. I've started doing the same thing with Kivi now that he's off my apron strings and I think there's something to be said for at least keeping a verbal commentary going so they have that connection with you while they be a dog.

Anyway, Penny is happy to defer to me at other times and it's a bit early to tell with Kivi, but in my limited experience dogs don't really go with the one leader in all things deal. They know who is good at what and when it's a waste of time to disagree. I find it difficult to be worried about the behaviour or the relationship I have with a dog I've been with for nearly 13 years. No one knows her like I do.

[Kavik]

I now prefer to try and prevent problems rather than deal with them later. Not all dogs have appropriate body language or approach and meet and greet in an appropriate way.

Kaos, while not aggressive, does not like dogs in his face or jumping all over him. I prefer to prevent him having to deal with them (which may escalate into a fight/aggression) by moving away where possible.

I thought with Zoe that taking her to the park and meeting all sorts of dogs (including bouncy ones) would allow her to learn how to deal with other dogs, and this turned into disaster as she is dog aggressive and now doesn't get to do nearly as much as she would otherwise. So maybe my experience has caused me to be more cautious in how I deal with these things. Paranoid? maybe. But Kaos is much nicer to have around other dogs, and I know which I prefer!

[poodlefan]

I would add one thing to this discussion for you to consider Corvus.

Penny is 13. Age lessens a dog's ability to see hear and sense other dogs. Increasing frailty also means that dogs are less capable of dealing with other dog issues.

What may have worked for you when she was younger may not work for you now. If her warning signs that she is unhappy with the behaviour of other dogs are increasing, maybe its time for you to rethink the "let her sort them out herself" angle (which I don't agree with btw)

Your dog is now OLD. Time to step up and protect her when she feels uncomfortable I reckon or you'll be seeing more and more signs of aggression.

Edited October 13, 2008 by poodlefan

[corvus]

As to the original question, I agree with what's already been said. Warnings are much better when you can see/hear them, you don't want a dog that's learned to stop showing warnings for fear of correction. I've had that happen with my dog to an extent and have to undo the damage which is much harder than preventing it in the first place.

You speak good sense. I think perhaps I've misrepresented Penny and the way we work together. I think there were times I should have been more pro-active, particularly when she was recovering from really bad dog fights at home and was feeling particularly nervous around strange dogs. That's when I should have been a bit more protective and I wasn't. It's a credit to her personality that it didn't go all horribly wrong at that point. I am hoping that the new pup will become as good as Penny without the complete abandonment. I readily admit that I have let Penny down at times when she needed my leadership and she is not as trusting of me as she could be as a result. I think that I mended this to some extent in the last few years, but I don't think I will ever fix it completely. The downfalls of letting a kid raise a dog. I am hoping I never let Kivi down like that, but nor do I want to somehow tamper with his natural adeptness with other dogs for the sake of feeling in control. I like watching animals be everything they can be. That makes me hold back with the dogs and watch instead. I learn from them better if I'm not controlling every little thing they do.

I'm curious to know how you undid the damage. Did you train warnings back in?

[Cosmolo]

Corvus you ask why you should stop Penny from air snapping/ warning with other dogs? My answer is simple- her doing that may get her into a fight with another dog who does not read the body language well or does not appreciate being 'told off' by an older weaker individual.

We're not dealing with wild dogs anymore- wild dogs would not be expected to meet and greet outsiders to the pack so what a wolf pack would or would not do is largely irrrelevant imo. I never want my dogs to think i won't look after them and that they need to use aggression- most aggression is not appetitive to the dog so i don't want to put them in that position.

Re: re teaching warning signals, IMO its about teaching alternate incompatible behaviour, not re teaching warning signals.

[Miranda]

I am hoping I never let Kivi down like that, but nor do I want to somehow tamper with his natural adeptness with other dogs for the sake of feeling in control. I like watching animals be everything they can be. That makes me hold back with the dogs and watch instead. I learn from them better if I'm not controlling every little thing they do.

I'm not a dog trainer but IMO you are living very dangerously and may be putting your dogs in harms way. I don't know if you've ever been involved in a full blown dog fight, but I have and I will do everything I can to avoid them, this includes controlling my dogs' interactions with other dogs, especially dogs I don't know.

[Cosmolo]

I don't understand how you can like watching animals be everything they can be- dogs can kill and seriously injure other dogs, animals and people- thats one part of natural behaviour i am happy not to see in my domestic dogs and to train away from wherever possible.