Personal Protection Training

[Steve K9Pro]

N: when it comes to obedience few clubs will train the way you advocate Steve. On the other hand a Sch club will begin the obedience process through drive.

K9: There are lots of private trainers, training clubs & training companies especially in Victoria that will train in drive, I don't think that a lack of training facilities is the problem nor the reason to train protection either.

N: I don't think adding some corrections when drive training is a bad thing - dogs need some control in their lives and simply opening the proverbial can of drive worms can be a nightmare for some dogs and owners alike. Some dogs need drive limited for their own sake - before the point where the little mushroom cloud appears between their ears and they can never settle down. Seen it - dont like it.

K9: Forcing control on a dog vs the dog learning self control to achieve drive satisfaction is a no win situation for forced control. You often end up combating an off leash dog that can see your lack of availability of force & flips you the finger. Of course there are ways to combat this too, but its a lot of combat that you don't need to have.

N: Also limiting a dogs prey items IMO can be a responsible part - wouldn't want a dog to see screaming, playing children as a way of gaining drive satisfaction would we.

K9: of course not, but that isn't limiting drive as much as not allowing satisfaction to be found there.

N: My Mal has been taught there are some things you NEVER use as prey items and it hasnt meant killing her drive at all. In fact it has helped her immensely with her drive building and focus and coping in busy places. She KNOWS what a drive toy is when I say (and we dont just have 2 or 3 I can still pick up random items like towels, tugs etc and let her know its preytime) and go bananas for it. If a kid runs around a pet store with a squeaky furry toy or waves it at her she'll look at it, look at me, look back and perk up but I allow no prey satisfaction from that scenario.

K9: This doesn't have to be taught through corrections though? Corrections by nature are to reduce or stop a unwanted behaviour, the behaviour must be learned before its there...

N: I mentioned the difference between dog sport and PP training because you said that I was leaning towards all dogs being prot trained to fulfill drive. PP no. Schutzhund or more specialised dog sports where a degree of thinking and challenge that utilises the innate features of the breed - yes. A shutz dog that may never completely go into defence and a PP dog that has gone beyond the realms of sport are two different things so no, we do not need PP dogs everywhere for the sake of drive satisfaction.

K9: what I am getting at is that we don't need to Protection train ANY dog just to achieve drive satisfaction, its written throughout all my posts in this thread.

N: The reward may be the same 'currency' but there is still a difference in what the reward satisfies for the dog and ultimately what you are bringing out of your dog.

K9: This is a learned condition not a genetic feature of the canine.

N: Dogs will also work through fear, anxiety, aggression, etc so you are saying these are all ultimately products of a drive?

K9: yes.

N: A decoy is never 100% prey and I think there are few dogs who simply see the decoy as a massive tug toy

K9: dogs that are not in any way afraid of the decoy & have not gone through any defence training do see the decoy as a tug toy, & I feel that's is a way to lost reliability of the dog in the face of the prey item (decoy).

N: hence mouthing, front bite, rejecting the sleeve and going back for the decoy, reluctance to engage the decoy from some angles/body parts

.

K9: These are signs of nerve issues either present due to genetics or poor decoy work (learned experiences).

N: p.s. I do have a wee bit of knowledge and working experience with drive training and all my dogs do it in some form or another. Thank you for the redirection.

K9: Cant see where I suggested that you didnt, when you questioned what I said I just provided information I felt would help you & the others reading this thread.

The clear message I posted was this

Owning a high drive dog should encompass some training in drive (IMO), that doesn't need to be driven towards or limited to Personal Protection training, there are other, less liability attracting & less risky types of training that will achieve the exact same results in terms of drive satisfaction for the dog.

The OP hasn't contacted me for PP training, if they did I would be assessing the need for a Personal Protection dog, assessing the dog & making my decision from there.

Edited October 8, 2008 by K9 Force

[KnuckleBuster]

Up until recently I did not know about Schutzhund training, but thanks to this site I have links to info about this and am currently studying so will make an informed decision as to which training I will pursue.

I agree that dogs will all learn differently, just like children. Maybe I was blessed with my girl's intelligence and drive as opposed to my boy's 'lack of drive'.

K9, I haven't contacted you as my original question was "Are there any PP trainers in Melbourne". I believe you are in Brisbane? Please correct me if I'm wrong. For your info, there are multiple reasons why I would like my new pup pp trained, some of which are having 100% control over my dog, having confidence in my dog to protect me (if the need arose), I am not interested in agility work (nothing wrong with it, just me) but would like to keep my dog 'on his toes', keep the dog (and me) mentally stimulated, and the social aspect for both the dog and myself. Obviously these are not all the reasons (some of my reasons are private - not for any discussion board). I realise these points can be achieved with obedience training, but I have found (with various schools in Melbourne), they become very repetitive and dare I say, boring and lack motivation.

You may or may not agree with my reasons, but that's okay, we are entitled to our opinions. I thankyou for your input.

[Steve K9Pro]

KB: K9, I haven't contacted you as my original question was "Are there any PP trainers in Melbourne".

K9: I wasn't saying you should contact me, I was saying you havent but if you had, if anyone does looking for PPT I assess the need before beginning training.

I believe you are in Brisbane? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

K9: No were in NSW.

For your info, there are multiple reasons why I would like my new pup pp trained, some of which are having 100% control over my dog,

K9: This is the point I have been trying to clear up for you, adding protection will not add control.

having confidence in my dog to protect me (if the need arose),

K9: sure I can understand that.

I am not interested in agility work (nothing wrong with it, just me) but would like to keep my dog 'on his toes', keep the dog (and me) mentally stimulated, and the social aspect for both the dog and myself.

K9: Stimlartion for the dog anyways come from drive satisfacton as we have discussed.

Obviously these are not all the reasons (some of my reasons are private - not for any discussion board). I realise these points can be achieved with obedience training, but I have found (with various schools in Melbourne), they become very repetitive and dare I say, boring and lack motivation.

K9: You might look into 4 Paws, Trish posts here o this board & they train motivationally.. Hope it all works out for you & your dog.