Personal Protection Training

[KnuckleBuster]

Hi there, just wondering if anyone knows of a 'personal protection' trainer in Melbourne.

We now have a Rotty pup which I would like to train. Why? I trained my previous Rotty in personal protection and found she was better overall in general obedience compared to my other Rotty who was 'obedience trained' only.

As a female I feel more 'at ease' knowing my best friend can also be my protector if the need arises. Fortunately I never found myself in a situation where her 'protection' was needed, although having the command to growl and show teeth was used a couple of times which I believe deterred a few undesirables.

Thanks for your help.

[Erny]

Knucklebuster - not sure where you are located but here in Victoria (and I believe it is the same for NSW) you are by law supposed to have a security licence to train or own a trained protection dog. In addition, if you have a protection trained dog you are supposed to 'declare' them as a 'dangerous dog' (or if someone finds out they can have them declared) and then you and your dog are subject to the 'dangerous dog laws'.

Not something I agree with and I also agree with you that a well trained (and I mean 'properly well trained') protection dog is often safer than the general pet dog next door, who has never been taught when NOT to bite. Many people view protection training as "teaching the dog to bite". IMO this is silly. Dogs already know how to bite. Protection training teaches them discrimination of when is right and when is wrong and affords the handler a control switch which can be turned on AND more importantly off in a split second. I think some scrutiny is required though, so that the right dogs don't end up in the wrong hands. Haven't heard of that happening myself - perhaps the people who are dedicated to the right and continuous training protection dogs need are too proud and dedicated to their dogs to do the wrong thing by them.

ETA: Off topic and no offense .... or perhaps there is, but it's not intended - I'm not sure about the name "knucklebuster". Makes me think of someone who likes to go around bullying and showing their toughness. I tend to find those who are in the reputable protection training fields don't need or want to do this. But it's just a name and perhaps you have a different reason for it.

Edited for grammar.

Edited October 6, 2008 by Erny

[SammyZ]

Not something I agree with and I also agree with you that a well trained (and I mean 'properly well trained') protection dog is often safer than the general pet dog next door, who has never been taught when NOT to bite. Many people view protection training as "teaching the dog to bite". IMO this is silly. Dogs already know how to bite. Protection training teaches them discrimination of when is right and when is wrong and affords the handler a control switch which can be turned on AND more importantly off in a split second. I think some scrutiny is required though, so that the right dogs don't end up in the wrong hands. Haven't heard of that happening myself - perhaps the people who are dedicated to the right and continuous training protection dogs need are too proud and dedicated to their dogs to do the wrong thing by them.

Agreed.

Just a quick side-note thing, is Schutzhund classed as protection training (from what I have read their third phase is a 'protection' component) and if you take part are you subject to the licensing/'dangerous dog' policies?

Bec.

[Erny]

Just a quick side-note thing, is Schutzhund classed as protection training (from what I have read their third phase is a 'protection' component) and if you take part are you subject to the licensing/'dangerous dog' policies?

Although faced with the difficulties of this law, I think Schutzhund's representation of what they do is classed as a 'sport' rather than protection. However due to the nature and wording of the laws, I don't think they are completely in the clear and I know that they are targetted by authorities such as Councils etc.

There is a law (I speak for Victoria) here that in its wording denounces it being legal for anyone to teach their dogs to bite anything that a person wears or holds. These are not the exact words of the law, but it is in essence what it says. That would cover Schutzhund training, but it would also cover the majority of pet dog owners who play tug or anything similar to tug with their dogs. Go figure.

One local Council I have spoken to is taking a dim view of the Schutzhund training and I believe has/is making a point of targetting them. I have asked the Council how many of the Schuthund trained dogs have posed a problem within the community.

So far there's been no answer to that.

Edited October 6, 2008 by Erny

[MonElite]

Just a quick side-note thing, is Schutzhund classed as protection training (from what I have read their third phase is a 'protection' component) and if you take part are you subject to the licensing/'dangerous dog' policies?

From what I understand - no its not.

Also rather than the third phase being called protection its actually called C work - C stands for Character assesment.

[Steve K9Pro]

K: We now have a Rotty pup which I would like to train. Why? I trained my previous Rotty in personal protection and found she was better overall in general obedience compared to my other Rotty who was 'obedience trained' only.

K9: There is no reason why obedience cannot be trained to the same level without protection training? Perhaps you achieved a higher level of training with your last (protection trained) dog as adding protection training to a dog may have required a higher level of obedience to satisfy the trainer that you had control of a dog that could (potentially) cause harm.

Personally, I would protection train a dog "just" to get a high level of obedience...There are many good reasons to train a dog in personal protection, this one wouldn't satisfy me to train your dog though..

[SammyZ]

Ta for the responses re: schutzhund. From the reading I have done, I see it as a sport, harnessing the existing ability of the dog and a very positive thing to do (if done correctly and with the dedication/knowledge needed) but was just curious on the councils take on it. Doesn't surprise me at all *roll eyes*

Sorry to go slightly OT but thanks.

Bec.

Bec.

[Nekhbet]

protection training is not legal in victoria unless you are a licenced security guard and training with a company.

Your dog will have to be classed as a dangerous dog and comply by the law.

Not me, the law. PM me if you got any questions about your pup

ETA : Knucklebuster I may know what you mean. A dog with a 'job' is more enthusiastic about responding for you then a dog that does repetitive obedience for the sake of it.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Steve K9Pro]

N: A dog with a 'job' is more enthusiastic about responding for you then a dog that does repetitive obedience for the sake of it.

K9: never seen a dog work for the "sake of it", dogs only work for something they find rewarding. Dogs like jobs as they find the job rewarding, in terms of prey, pack or food drive.

If you can utilise these assets in protection you can utilise them in Obedience...

[KnuckleBuster]

Thankyou for all your posts. I appreciate your thoughts and comments. In regards to the training, I believe I have put in more of an effort with Buster (obedience trained only) than with my previous Rotty (protection trained) but the results would say otherwise. Hence, why I would like to train Knuckles in this field. Please rest assured, I have not, and NEVER will, train a dog to become a weapon; they are part of our family (our 4-legged children).

If I had my way anyone who owns an animal (be it a dog or cat) you should need a licence and mandatory 'basic obedience' training. If all pets had basic obedience, I believe we wouldn't see any of these 'negative' stories about dogs attacking people 'for no reason'.

The reason for my name - it is my dogs names: we have a 'nearly 12 year old going on 12 month old!' Rotty named Buster, and a new little friend for him, a 12 week old Rotty named Knuckles (named this due to the size of his paws,,, plus the fact he is a bit of a knuckle-head. lol). I did try a few other names but all taken.

Can anyone provide details on where a 'Schutzhund' training centre is in the western suburbs of Melbourne. And maybe explain a little more about the '3 phases'?

[Nekhbet]

K9 I mean a dog that just does repetitive obedience when it genetics can do much more.

how many breeds have in the standard "not good with repetitive work". Chop and change and the dog will do something. Protection training works on defense as well as prey drive so the dog gets more out of it then just doing obedience for a tug toy, treat or pat.

[Erny]

Thanks for the explanation of your name, KB .... although I recognise I was not entitled to it and you didn't have to give it. Paints a better picture than that which I was originally (and obviously incorrectly) forming in my mind. It is difficult sometimes to know who you're really talking to over the net and whether that person is responsible or not so sometimes I get a bit guarded, especially when I think the outcome for the dog/s could not be favourable.

I don't know of any Schutzhund training schools over in the Western suburbs. Have you tried googling? Not sure if they list them given the pressures authorities place on them.

[Nekhbet]

I highly recommend Southern Cross K9 over the others

Address

Lawson Poole Reserve

Lesdon Avenue

CRANBOURNE 3977

Contact Details

Mrs Lynne MacDonald

Phone (AH): 5995 1268

John McDonald is a member of the Rottweiler Club as well. I've had a bit to do with PP and Schutzhund and by far they are the best ethically.

Conversely if you're ever down Geelong way pop down with your pups and I can give you some pointers. I visit werribee sometimes too

Edited October 7, 2008 by Nekhbet

[SammyZ]

I got some great information re: Schutzhund from here - http://www.schutzhundaustralia.com

They have a Clubs page with contacts. Unfortunately (for me! I would love to see it in action) there doesn't seem to a WA branch at present.

Good luck,

Bec.

[cramet]

here is the other group

http://www.sportdogaustralia.com/index.htm

dont qoute me on this but i think sothern cross has finished

[Kavik]

In regards to your protection trained dog having better obedience - it could also have been a temperament/personality thing? Diesel, who I have trained with a focus to competition and can do more of the focus and competition heeling stuff, has a different temperament to Zoe, and is not as motivated generally, I think a drive/temperament thing than anything to do with how they were trained. I chopped and changed heaps with Zoe, but was fairly consistent with how I trained Diesel, and now even at 9 years of age, there are some things that Zoe will do faster and more enthusiastically.

[Steve K9Pro]

KB: In regards to the training, I believe I have put in more of an effort with Buster (obedience trained only) than with my previous Rotty (protection trained) but the results would say otherwise. Hence, why I would like to train Knuckles in this field.

K9: I know what you mean, but no two dogs are alike, if this dog doesn't do as well with more training than your other dog, I doubt Protection training would go as well either. This dog either has less drive than your other dog or your not using something the dog finds rewarding.

N: K9 I mean a dog that just does repetitive obedience when it genetics can do much more.

K9: If by "repetitive obedience" you mean mind numbing pacing up & down a field with little to no motivation then sure, I agree, but we all know (or should do) that obedience training through drive would be just as rewarding / drive stimulating as protection work.

I see a lot of dogs come through here that I could recommend protection training for due to the great drives & nerves they have, but I could equally recommend Competition obedience, Sch, SAR, Retrieving, Herding & the list goes on.

I have trained protection for many years but hesitate to recommend it to anyone that doesnt "need" it...

We also start (I do anyway) with obedience training (in drive) so we have control before any aggression is considered, that way if someone drops out half way through, all they have is a very obedient dog with no bite work.

N: how many breeds have in the standard "not good with repetitive work".

K9: Not sure, I assess each dog on its own merits rather than a breed standard written as a guide.

N: Protection training works on defense as well as prey drive so the dog gets more out of it then just doing obedience for a tug toy, treat or pat.

K9: The payment (reward) for any drive is the same in the dogs mind, be it prey or defence, its all the one chemical that flows in the animals brain. One is no more rewarding than the other if triggered & utilised correctly.

Otherwise, it seems as if your saying that every dog of certain breeds should be protection trained to ensure drive satisfaction is complete.

[Nekhbet]

Otherwise, it seems as if your saying that every dog of certain breeds should be protection trained to ensure drive satisfaction is complete.

not at all. I do know that protection training and things like Shutzhund are two very different things to a dog. BUT protection and shutzhund add an extra element of excitement for the dog. How many dogs do you see dragging their owners into the shutzhund club in excitement at just getting one go. You can't tell me that a dog doing these persuits is going to be nonchalant about the whole process - it encourages the dog to give more and at a greater intensity, whereas straight obedience does not require that level of stimulation from the dog.

Although more people should be doing shutzhund and other specialised dogsports but that's just a personal opinion. No way every schutzhund dog will be a good PP dog, I also understand the difference between a dog doing 'sport' and a dog doing 'work' per say. But why not train a perfectly capable dog in schutzhund? I see no problem with that if the OP has already owned a PP dog before then maybe he has a reasonable idea about it and would enjoy it. He is also willingly asking for advice about what is the best direction from his dog which I see as a good sign.

I was giving a possible explanation as to why a dog may have been 'better' in the owners eyes then the one who just did obedience.

K9: The payment (reward) for any drive is the same in the dogs mind, be it prey or defence, its all the one chemical that flows in the animals brain. One is no more rewarding than the other if triggered & utilised correctly.

DO you mean defense and prey, or the actual item that is the focus of the dog. If you are saying that all prey times are equal reward ultimately for the dog then I have a couple of dogs sitting here begging to differ with you :rolleyes:

Edited October 8, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Steve K9Pro]

N: I do know that protection training and things like Shutzhund are two very different things to a dog. BUT protection and shutzhund add an extra element of excitement for the dog.

K9: In most cases they are satisfying prey drive where it wasn't being satisfied before.

N: How many dogs do you see dragging their owners into the shutzhund club in excitement at just getting one go.

K9: Lots, how many dogs do you see chase a ball with the same enthusiasm? (ps dogs seeing the decoy as the 100% prey item is old school IMO)

N: You can't tell me that a dog doing these persuits is going to be nonchalant about the whole process - it encourages the dog to give more and at a greater intensity, whereas straight obedience does not require that level of stimulation from the dog.

K9: No I cant, nor would want to, see in my post above I said

"K9: If by "repetitive obedience" you mean mind numbing pacing up & down a field with little to no motivation then sure, I agree, but we all know (or should do) that obedience training through drive would be just as rewarding / drive stimulating as protection work."

So, I said & repeat that, training obedience to achieve drive satisfaction will provide the same stimulation as protection work.

In the old days, obedience was trained through compulsion, protection through some form of drive, that no longer has to be (or should be) the case. Compulsion by design is reduce/extinguish/limit drive so when I am training in drive I steer far from any type of correction.

N: No way every schutzhund dog will be a good PP dog, I also understand the difference between a dog doing 'sport' and a dog doing 'work' per say.

K9: The only appreciable difference would be the nerves of the dog, but this is not what I am discussing.

N: But why not train a perfectly capable dog in schutzhund? I see no problem with that if the OP has already owned a PP dog before then maybe he has a reasonable idea about it and would enjoy it. He is also willingly asking for advice about what is the best direction from his dog which I see as a good sign.

K9: I guess everyone reads posts differently, I see a person that has put more work into this dog than the old dog with less results, so they were thinking that the only difference was that the old dog was Prot trained, & I think the type of training isn't where the problem lays, and although it makes no real difference Knucklebuster is a female.

N: DO you mean defense and prey, or the actual item that is the focus of the dog. If you are saying that all prey times are equal reward ultimately for the dog then I have a couple of dogs sitting here begging to differ with you

K9: Sorry, I didnt explain the drive process thouroughly, drive satisfaction is the same for every drive in other words, if the dog goes through the drive sequence of prey or defence, the reward to the dog, drive satisfaction is the same, its felt by the dog as internally rewarding, through a chemical change in the brain, therefore, if you satisfy prey drive or defence, its the same currency so to speak.

Having a dog that will only gain satisfaction from one specific prey item is a little limiting also.

Here is an old post that has quite a bit of info in it Prey drive control & focus

Edited October 8, 2008 by K9 Force

[Nekhbet]

when it comes to obedience few clubs will train the way you advocate Steve. On the other hand a Sch club will begin the obedience process through drive.

I dont think adding some corrections when drive training is a bad thing - dogs need some control in their lives and simply opening the proverbial can of drive worms can be a nightmare for some dogs and owners alike. Some dogs need drive limited for their own sake - before the point where the little mushroom cloud appears between their ears and they can never settle down. Seen it - dont like it.

Also limiting a dogs prey items IMO can be a responsible part - wouldnt want a dog to see screaming, playing children as a way of gaining drive satisfaction would we. My Mal has been taught there are some things you NEVER use as prey items and it hasnt meant killing her drive at all. In fact it has helped her immensely with her drive building and focus and coping in busy places. She KNOWS what a drive toy is when I say (and we dont just have 2 or 3 I can still pick up random items like towels, tugs etc and let her know its preytime) and go bananas for it. If a kid runs around a pet store with a squeaky furry toy or waves it at her she'll look at it, look at me, look back and perk up but I allow no prey satisfaction from that scenario.

I mentioned the difference between dog sport and PP training because you said that I was leaning towards all dogs being prot trained to fulfill drive. PP no. Schutzhund or more specialised dog sports where a degree of thinking and challenge that utilises the innate features of the breed - yes. A shutz dog that may never completely go into defence and a PP dog that has gone beyond the realms of sport are two different things so no, we do not need PP dogs everywhere for the sake of drive satisfaction.

The reward may be the same 'currency' but there is still a difference in what the reward satisfies for the dog and ultimately what you are bringing out of your dog. The effects of training in defence and prey are different and one can over ride the other (sometimes frustratingly) producing a different end result for both the dog and trainer.

Dogs will also work through fear, anxiety, aggression, etc so you are saying these are all ultimately products of a drive?

A decoy is never 100% prey and I think there are few dogs who simply see the decoy as a massive tug toy - hence mouthing, front bite, rejecting the sleeve and going back for the decoy, reluctance to engage the decoy from some angles/body parts.

p.s. I do have a wee bit of knowledge and working experience with drive training and all my dogs do it in some form or another. Thank you for the redirection.