Unsociable Habits - Help Or Opinions Welcomed

[emmabelle]

Ok, I have a three year old GSP.

He's gorgeous, was a rescue, have kept him despite divorce.

I cannot trust him to be on his own.

If I let him out the back yard, he escapes. I have wire and posts up... he finds a way. I feel like I'm painting the harbour bridge because I'm constantly going out there to find the holes and block them up. He's an escape artist. He can jump 6 foot easily. He is incredibly slim and fit and can fit under the tiniest gap.

It's like he's driven to escape.

He then won't come when called and in fact, has never done so other than on his own terms. I understand this is part of the breed but I desperately want him to come back.

When he is loose, he's immediately onto the street and chasing cars. He thinks it's a game... runs to stop them by going in front of them, runs along side, barking like crazy.

I cannot get him in when he's like this. Nothing I do works.

I also cannot train him to heel. I have been working on it for years. Truly. Nothing I do works... What am I doing wrong? It cannot be the dog, surely it must be the owner? I do not know.

The dog was a mess when I got him at 8 months out of a pound - totally unsocialised, barked at his own shadow, neurotic, wrecked rooms and expensive shoes (only the best German leather shoes - after all, he is a German so knows the good stuff). He had one day left before they put him down. He is in peak condition after 2 years of hard work. He sits, drops, fetches and returns balls... loving and affectionate, loves other dogs and plays so well, loves my kids, is so very well looked after..

BUT I do not know how to get him to come back to me when I want, not when he wants. I am afraid someone will complain because his behaviour is a nuisance and the ranger may come to visit. He is none aggressive (actually a total idiot softie) but I am afraid that he could be seen as threatening... he is a tall dog and not everyone understands dog language.

I need to break this escape/car chase/none recall thing because I fear for his life. One day he may go under the wheels of a car and not return.

Can anyone give me any advice as to how to start. I know he is trainable... (though not food driven) because I have trained him to do certain things... I have read as much as I can find on the internet. I walk around with treats in my pocket constantly rewarding his good behaviour... but instinct and drive takes over and he is not controllable.

I am a single parent and struggling to work and get jobs right now. I want to get a trainer but I cannot afford one currently - perhaps January.

I am willing to get the best and sort this issue with someone because I think it's worth it. This animal is beautiful and could be a great dog... but...

Right now, I do not like my dog very much. I cannot trust him to be off leash in my garden. I want a good dog who comes when he is called...

If he came when called and was obedient, and walked to heel, I would be a happy dog owner.

Right now, I am not and cannot carry on owning him if I cannot resolve these problems. He is making life miserable for me. I don't like to say that but it is true.

He is a liability, not a pleasure. I need to change that.

I would very much enjoy your opinions on how to resolve the problem.

Thank you.

Edit to add: He is walked and run for at least an hour a day, both off leash and on, in case you think he is not exercised. Socialises with other dogs. I feed him well, he is played with and stimulated. He has an acre to run on but escapes even this.

Edited October 3, 2008 by emmabelle

[Deleted]

deleted

Edited June 14, 2010 by Deleted

[Nekhbet]

sounds like you need a professional trainer to get you on the right track

I second the electric fence idea or a secure dog run when you cannot be with him.

what area are you in

[emmabelle]

sounds like you need a professional trainer to get you on the right track

I second the electric fence idea or a secure dog run when you cannot be with him.

what area are you in

I'm in a rental place in the Blue Mountains area.

The electric fence.... dog run... money, money, money! I wish I had some!

[dee lee]

Sweetie- hugs to you :cool: I know how hard it is.

I have a love hate relationship with my dog for other reasons (dog aggression for one) and she has only survived by the skin of her teeth and because I finally got help from a trainer.

IF you can handle it (it must be hellish being a single mum as well) just stick with it, muddle through and when you can afford it get a trainer in. It does make a big difference- my dog aint fixed, but I understand a lot more about how to get there. Oh and NOW she heels!!!

Good luck,

Dee

[Deleted]

deleted

Edited June 14, 2010 by Deleted

[percyk]

oh you poor thing

i had a gsd

he got out once as a pup and i found him ( after neighbour phoned work ) trying to get back IN lol

he was my shadow

so recall was never a problem

now i have an alpha bitch here - a little thing she is and my son can get her back no matter how far she goes

she will slink back to him and lie on her back- he uses no treats but she is his dog totally even though hes hardly here anymore

i get her back with a loud piercing call and i used to rattle the dog biscuit box when she was little- hnow she has mellowed and she doesnt try to get out

id work with your dog in a room somewhere he cant escape from and practise recall all of the time during the day too - incidentally and for just a few times so he doesnt get bored- do not take him out into the open where he will be distracted and you cant get him back

i play hide and seek with my new ones when they join the family- (ill go hide in another room - we have arches that connect other rooms and you can virtually sneak around the house) and im armed with the best of treats -bbq chicken and the dog is awaiting its meal so is very motivated!

this really helps in the beginning with my dogs - later we do it in the yard- again when hungry

sometimes i get the others to join so a reticent pup gets the idea faster -'something good is going tohappen when i get there!' so when i call one - they all race

one is 8 yrs old now and she still gets to practise recall at home

so find out what he loves

is he food driven ? does he love a particular noisy toy or fluffy thing on string?

once you know how to get him to come to you for that the going gets easier

i assume youre never calling him back in frustrated tone and that you are encouraging him the minute he turns his head

go back to the absolute basics and break it down if you have to

so that means if hes even turning to you ( in small room like laundry or bathroom) then he gets rewarded - i have always used a leash - a long one initially to make him come if he doesnt - not drag but remind him

you have to be more incredibly interesting than anything he knows

above all dont set up 'failure situations'

if you know hes not going to come

go get him

the more times he doesnt come the more hell think he doesnt have to

have you ever tried running away from him? does he tend to follow?

i have a few dogs and they stick together - one of them has excellent recall and he gets the others back cos they dont like being apart when theyre out off leash somewhere

i found that with my aussie terrier who had hopeless recall - the gsd i had at the same time would start pelting back and so would she but she never did bond to me that well- she loved my dad though and was his shadow so go figure - i bought herand trained her and she ended up being a little traitor ( kidding cos my dad was like francis of assissi when it came to all animals lol i could never compete!)

id invest in a run in the meantime

and keep him in it when youre out

can you keep him inside at all for a few hours or is he still destructive?

i wish you the best

they are the best of dogs but i know some can be challenging

dont give up

it seems youve got him so far from a rough start!

[percyk]

as for heeling

ive had easy dogs and hard dogs

but the method is the same

stick to a loose lead -dogs will pull against a taut lead

when hes walking by your side reward with a treat

if he starts moving ahead of you - dont tighten - just let him go and then turn sharply and go the other way

he will have to go behind you

keep calling heel and as he levels with you feed him the great treat and praise

i have walked like this for many blocks - virtually getting nowhere but the dogs eventually get the idea that there is no sense in pulling ahead of me cos we will go the opposite way

again practise this in your yard first

break it up with a few sits and drops too

talk to people about your options with collars

when i first started it was chokers for everyone and worn pretty high

then in the 80s chokers were frowned upon and when i did obedience we just used a flat collar

now i use martingales

the hardest thing is to keep walking and practising and not abandon the walk- (perhaps drive to your destination for exercise so the whole session isnt hellish )

it can be so frustrating and your arm can hurt even with a little one

mine used to start trying to catch up with each other if we all walked together so id do the opposite and make them walk the other way and reward

my latest dog is learning not to rush home on our way back

no matter how tempting it is i wont let him go past me

and im last home if the kids are ahead of me

( hes very good otherwise when we are heading off he heels quite well and midway hes excellent)

as for cars - ive not had a chaser but again id desensitise - get his treats go sit him down on a leash and plug away like any desensitisation

you can distract him with a command /toy or treat as a car goes by and praise

choose a quiet location and build up

face him away at first and make sure you dont start somewhere where he is close to cars - maybe start further up where he can see them but cant see the wheels and start before he starts to react- then as he begins to reacts you distract= hes got to understand that the reward is for ignoring the cars and focussing on you not on the cars

[emmabelle]

oh you poor thing

i had a gsd

he got out once as a pup and i found him ( after neighbour phoned work ) trying to get back IN lol

he was my shadow

so recall was never a problem

now i have an alpha bitch here - a little thing she is and my son can get her back no matter how far she goes

she will slink back to him and lie on her back- he uses no treats but she is his dog totally even though hes hardly here anymore

i get her back with a loud piercing call and i used to rattle the dog biscuit box when she was little- hnow she has mellowed and she doesnt try to get out

id work with your dog in a room somewhere he cant escape from and practise recall all of the time during the day too - incidentally and for just a few times so he doesnt get bored- do not take him out into the open where he will be distracted and you cant get him back

i play hide and seek with my new ones when they join the family- (ill go hide in another room - we have arches that connect other rooms and you can virtually sneak around the house) and im armed with the best of treats -bbq chicken and the dog is awaiting its meal so is very motivated!

this really helps in the beginning with my dogs - later we do it in the yard- again when hungry

sometimes i get the others to join so a reticent pup gets the idea faster -'something good is going tohappen when i get there!' so when i call one - they all race

one is 8 yrs old now and she still gets to practise recall at home

so find out what he loves

is he food driven ? does he love a particular noisy toy or fluffy thing on string?

once you know how to get him to come to you for that the going gets easier

i assume youre never calling him back in frustrated tone and that you are encouraging him the minute he turns his head

go back to the absolute basics and break it down if you have to

so that means if hes even turning to you ( in small room like laundry or bathroom) then he gets rewarded - i have always used a leash - a long one initially to make him come if he doesnt - not drag but remind him

you have to be more incredibly interesting than anything he knows

above all dont set up 'failure situations'

if you know hes not going to come

go get him

the more times he doesnt come the more hell think he doesnt have to

have you ever tried running away from him? does he tend to follow?

i have a few dogs and they stick together - one of them has excellent recall and he gets the others back cos they dont like being apart when theyre out off leash somewhere

i found that with my aussie terrier who had hopeless recall - the gsd i had at the same time would start pelting back and so would she but she never did bond to me that well- she loved my dad though and was his shadow so go figure - i bought herand trained her and she ended up being a little traitor ( kidding cos my dad was like francis of assissi when it came to all animals lol i could never compete!)

id invest in a run in the meantime

and keep him in it when youre out

can you keep him inside at all for a few hours or is he still destructive?

i wish you the best

they are the best of dogs but i know some can be challenging

dont give up

it seems youve got him so far from a rough start!

Thanks so much for all the lovely tips. I'll start these straight away.

I'm currently rewarding him every time he returns to me when we're walking.... in the off leash area, I've found that if I reward other dogs for coming back to me (friend's dogs) that he will be motivated to stick with me because he is jealous...

I can keep him inside... it's just he's meant to be an 'outside' dog due to the terms of my lease... but I can't have him outside because he's driven to escape.

I wonder if it is a bonding issue... he was 8 months when I got him and I don't think he's really very close to me.

I haven't tried many of the things you've suggested so I will do that this week.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond so eloquently.

[emmabelle]

as for heeling

ive had easy dogs and hard dogs

but the method is the same

stick to a loose lead -dogs will pull against a taut lead

when hes walking by your side reward with a treat

if he starts moving ahead of you - dont tighten - just let him go and then turn sharply and go the other way

he will have to go behind you

keep calling heel and as he levels with you feed him the great treat and praise

i have walked like this for many blocks - virtually getting nowhere but the dogs eventually get the idea that there is no sense in pulling ahead of me cos we will go the opposite way

again practise this in your yard first

break it up with a few sits and drops too

talk to people about your options with collars

when i first started it was chokers for everyone and worn pretty high

then in the 80s chokers were frowned upon and when i did obedience we just used a flat collar

now i use martingales

the hardest thing is to keep walking and practising and not abandon the walk- (perhaps drive to your destination for exercise so the whole session isnt hellish )

it can be so frustrating and your arm can hurt even with a little one

mine used to start trying to catch up with each other if we all walked together so id do the opposite and make them walk the other way and reward

my latest dog is learning not to rush home on our way back

no matter how tempting it is i wont let him go past me

and im last home if the kids are ahead of me

( hes very good otherwise when we are heading off he heels quite well and midway hes excellent)

as for cars - ive not had a chaser but again id desensitise - get his treats go sit him down on a leash and plug away like any desensitisation

you can distract him with a command /toy or treat as a car goes by and praise

choose a quiet location and build up

face him away at first and make sure you dont start somewhere where he is close to cars - maybe start further up where he can see them but cant see the wheels and start before he starts to react- then as he begins to reacts you distract= hes got to understand that the reward is for ignoring the cars and focussing on you not on the cars

thank you.

[emmabelle]

The Electric Fence isn't massively expensive. The box costs a bit I guess, but the wire and stuff's not that much. It can be a big effort to put up - but it's worth it. Much cheaper and IMO much more effective than a lot of other options.

Thank you Kazzie. I will look into it.

[emmabelle]

Sweetie- hugs to you I know how hard it is.

I have a love hate relationship with my dog for other reasons (dog aggression for one) and she has only survived by the skin of her teeth and because I finally got help from a trainer.

IF you can handle it (it must be hellish being a single mum as well) just stick with it, muddle through and when you can afford it get a trainer in. It does make a big difference- my dog aint fixed, but I understand a lot more about how to get there. Oh and NOW she heels!!!

Good luck,

Dee

Thank you Dee. I know what you mean about a love hate relationship. I have got this far and I can't quit, but these two things, the escaping and car chasing are really making me think.

I want to get Christmas out of the way first and then I will pay a trainer to come in and see what we can do. I'll of course, be working on the other tips in the meantime though. Anything has to be better than this.

I know he has the potential to be a good dog... it is so frustrating when they misbehave.

[Monah]

I really feel for you too!! GSPs are FANTASTIC dogs, very very intelligent. he sounds adorable. I really hope you find a way to keep him in, awkward when renting. Even though you are not supossed to have him in, is there just one room in the house you can have him instead of outside? We have cleared aroom right out completely,except for dog crates and ours are in there when we are out etc. I understand it's a difficult situation.

With the recall, all I can suggest is treats treat treats. I wear one of those dorky bum bags FULL of great stuff, roast beef etc. and even when we are out off lead, my dogs come back every minute or so to get a treat, I just tell them to give me their paw or something if I haven't called them, so they ALWAYS associate coming to me with something really good. So far, with my latest 2 pups who are now nearly 3 and nearly 2, I haven't had a single off lead problem.

BUT, I thoroughly understand every dog is different. I agree with special trainer and training. it really really does help. I'm sure your boy has it in him to be incredible, someone just needs to work out how to get the best out of him. Does he like a tug rope toy? I've seen many dogs do anything for a 'game', but they only get the tuggie when they have done something correct, as with a treat, not just a game any old time. Good luck, I really wish you well

Also, there is a GSP breed page thread on DOL, top of General, the breeders and owners on there may be able to give you some advice relevant to GSPS!!

[The Spotted Devil]

For the recall - think about the value of the rewards you are offering him - they have to be much better than the option of running off. For instance, in the house I can do any form of training with my Dally using his normal dry food. When he is highly distracted at the beach/park I use cooked chicken and 4 legs dog food balls. I've recently included a bit of raw chicken mince in the training treat pouch which he goes absolutely spare for. He's nearly 2 and I've had him since he was a pup - his recall is pretty good now but I still practice every time he has an off leash run.....at least 4-5 recalls each time - he comes, I give him a treat or pat and release him to continue his fun. IF he ignores me, I walk up to him calmly, say "Oh well", snap the leash on and he has to walk quietly next to me with NO sniffing or leg lifting. He knows darn well he has lost the privilige of a free run - after a few minutes of this I release him again and he will recall like a bullet for the rest of the walk

As for being an escape artist, I suspect my Dally would have been had he been given the opportunity to learn. I never leave him in the backyard unsupervised - he is either with me or, if I go out, he is in his open crate in the laundry. He happily curls up there with a stuffed kong before sleeping the day away. Zig is a pretty intense, active dog and I have had to teach him to relax - as a puppy he couldn't even sleep in the lounge room as he would get too distracted. I had to put him away in his crate for a few hours nap.

Good luck

ETA: If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't trust Ziggy to be left on his own for any money!!!!

Edited October 4, 2008 by The Spotted Devil

[Monah]

Spotted Devil, I think we are clones of each other (or our dogs are!)

Emmabelle, yes the treats have to be FANTASTIC!! and for my dogs, because we go where there are roos and also on the beach, I HAVE to be confident they will return straight away. So what works for me is calling them and treating every single time, even though they know they have to come. When we first taught them to come from very long distances,(just remembered!), one of the kids would walk off while I walked slowly with the dogs, then when he/she was very far off, they would call the dog very excitedly and the dog would go flat out to get to them,(I say OFF YOU GO!!) then treated and I would call the dog back and treat, so the dog was going back and forth between us. We still do this as a game, but it really worked very quickly to get a good recall, and at least there is someone each end if the worse happens!! I always say YAY!!!! good come etc and also pat as well as treat, just in case i run out of treats sometime and have to pat instead. Coming to YOU has to be the best thing ever, even if you are boiling over with frustration, still be all happy and treat the dog.

You may already do all this, so sorry if it's useless info. Good luck!

[Danois]

It is illegal in NSW to use an electric fence to confine a dog or cat (s16 Prevention of Cruelty to Animals 1976 and s10 of the associated Regs).

You can use a ping string type fence provided it is inside of another fence that the dog cannot pass through and is no higher than 1.5m of the ground.

[emmabelle]

It is illegal in NSW to use an electric fence to confine a dog or cat (s16 Prevention of Cruelty to Animals 1976 and s10 of the associated Regs).

You can use a ping string type fence provided it is inside of another fence that the dog cannot pass through and is no higher than 1.5m of the ground.

Thanks for that Danois.

Thank you so much for the suggestions everyone.

Really great stuff to try out. I'll update you in a couple of weeks how we've got on.

[The Spotted Devil]

Spotted Devil, I think we are clones of each other (or our dogs are!)

There's only room enough in this world for one mad Dally

Emmabelle - one more thing....exercise is important for your GSP but training (beyond sit/drop etc) can also really help. I just spent 10 minutes doing a training session with Ziggy in the lounge room. You can use a clicker to shape behaviours (do a Google or a search on this forum for heaps of ideas) and just get your boy to work his brain. Some things I've taught will help with trialling in the future but all are really good at keeping Zig out of mischief e.g. touch (my hand or target with his nose), punch (with his paw), finding "heel", watch, "front" (i.e. formal recall), "around" (anything - a chair, his bed), "find" (his favourite squeaky toys that I show him before hiding them). I even used the clicker to teach him to put his head in a bucket - very funny It's heaps of fun for you and your dog and is a lovely way to improve your relationship with him. You can observe your dog "learning" and work out what suits him best. Better still - you can do some of it whilst sitting in an armchair

[Erny]

It is illegal in NSW to use an electric fence to confine a dog or cat (s16 Prevention of Cruelty to Animals 1976 and s10 of the associated Regs).

You can use a ping string type fence provided it is inside of another fence that the dog cannot pass through and is no higher than 1.5m of the ground.

... What's a "ping string" type fence?

[Nekhbet]

general electric fence set up like I have in my yard - the 'shock tape' type stuff low to the ground

Edited October 4, 2008 by Nekhbet