Purely Positive - A Few Questions

[Luke W]

.oops

Edited October 5, 2008 by Luke W

[corvus]

My question relates mainly to tone of voice. Now as I see it - its punishment and positive depending on how it is used. And that I should possibly replace the bad tone of voice with negative punishment (so ignoring or witholding reward) but how do you do this is a scenario such as:

**Puppy is stalking my 14mth old son for food that he is carrying around. I would normally in a gruff voice say 'Ah Ah' and puppy would retreat. I would then drop or sit puppy until my son has finished the food and then release him, with heaps of praise etc.

So how do I do this in a purely positive way?? 14mth old can't do it, as he is too little, and usually I am a distance away?

To be honest, I think stern tones of voice are very useful and not necessarily very punishing. I have found my pup has had to learn what a stern tone means. What would you want it to mean? If you don't want it to be punishing there's no reason why it should be unless the dog naturally finds it punishing.

Anyway, this is what I'd do:

Train a great "leave it" using high value food treats if the dog is food motivated. Don't start with the kiddy, but start with something boring and reward the dog for looking away and build up to better things. Always make sure your reward is higher than the reward of the thing you are asking the dog to leave. In the meantime, manage and make sure the dog is not able to stalk the child for food. Additionally, start teaching the dog something about tone or a stop command using classical conditioning so you have something to fall back on if you get ahead of yourself and/or find yourself in a situation where your leave it command is not working. It should at least give you a moment of hesitation to use either to go and get the dog or sing out an incompatible command such as calling the dog over, asking for a sit or down or whatever.

Eventually, the dog should "leave it" whether you have treats or not as it will have become a conditioned response to do so. The dog should hesitate at the least if you use your classically conditioned punisher, which is a bad name for it because the dog shouldn't find it very aversive at all. My animals respond to "ah-ah" by stopping and looking at me (all of them, even the bunnies!). If it's something they didn't care about that much anyway, they will leave it at that and find something else to do. If it's something they really do care about, they might experimentally try continuing and I would repeat the ah-ah more firmly. If I'm lazy enough that I haven't got up yet and they are determined enough to push it, they might try again at which point I get up and shoo them away, usually finding them something else more acceptable to do. People will tell you they are the ones training me, but hey, some of us are okay with this. My hare will deliberately pretend to nibble on something he knows I am eventually going to get up and chase him away from if he is in the mood to be chased. In all honesty, I am totally okay with him using that to tell me he wants to be chased, and I am totally okay with obliging him. The dogs don't seem to use it to their advantage like that, at least so far, but my older dog is a bit cluey and if she finds something to eat on the ground and I say "ah-ah" she'll eat it as fast as possible because she knows I will come and get it off her. Needless to say, her training has not been particularly rigorous and her "leave it" was trained the lazy and less-effective way using classical conditioning rather than operant conditioning. If you want to avoid these problems, you've got to either make sure you're using high value rewards or be prepared to use aversives. My old dog knows wolfing down what she's found on the ground will bring my wrath down on her, but she also knows the worst of my wrath involves being cross with her and maybe separating her from me and all the fun for a bit. The food is worth it, so unless I want to get nasty with her, my only option is to be offering something better than the food or managing. For those that want to triumphantly point out how I have failed in my positive methods or whatever, I've heard it all before and I'm not talking to you. I am happy to bring up my training failures to illustrate where things can go wrong.

I always get in trouble when I compare hares and dogs, but I do it habitually because that hare has taught me so much about animals and the way they think. There's nothing like an animal you can't just bull over, force, coerce, or correct and that doesn't care if you are cross with it and some days would prefer you to leave it alone anyway to teach you something about getting along with animals! He's really changed the way I look at dogs, but let me just say I am all too aware of the differences between dogs and hares, which is why I never want another hare but will have dogs all my life!

[Erny]

... there's absolutely nothing wrong with deciding to manage rather than use P+ or something else aversive.

Sorry, it seems I misunderstood your point. I thought you were making a blanket statement in relation to dog training across the board.

I agree that in your specific case of your hare and your dog, and the double door system you've created is a good and sensible thing to do, as management does break down and we can only do our best to try to work so that there is a safety net for human error or even for things that occur that are out of our control, and hope/trust that these things will be sufficient.

I also misunderstood the overall 'flavour' of your post, as it sounded to me as though you were indicating P+ had no place in dog training (across the board) because you've proven to yourself it doesn't work with your hares. I guess my mind was working to cover all instances of life to which our dogs are subject to in the human world and that there are some things where "management" is not sufficient nor acceptable within the community. Perhaps my mind's wanderings were exceeding the realms for which this thread was created.

I'm glad you haven't sworn off the use of aversives completely and that you would use them if you found it to be necessary and in the long term best interests of the dog. It is more than once that I have come across others who seemed to have taken some sort of personal vow that this would never be the case, and where owners have come to me desperate, because it's been recommended to them their dog be pts because the methods excluding P+ have not worked on their dog's problematic behaviour.

I agree that working with different animals adds a depth of knowledge and experience to our understanding of animals, but it should also bring it clearer to us the differences between them as well. Your comparison example has been your hare and your dog. And all too often the comparison is between dolphins and dogs with the view that +R and -P training works for the dolphins hence we should use it with dogs to the exclusion of all else. The difference in psych between the two is often ignored, along with the fact that dolphins are not in and around the community as dogs are, nor do they share our lives as dogs do, so often it doesn't really matter that animals such as dolphins, who are confined to their watery world, do not perform the behaviours they are taught simply because their preferences for not doing so exceed their preference for +R at the time.

ETA:

And this may come as a surprise, but I don't actually mentally classify everything I do into OC quadrants and make sure I've picked R+ and R-. I just make a habit of picking least invasive and minimally aversive methods.

I don't consciously break down the four quadrants of learning (ie +P; -P; +R; -R) during active training with animals, Corvus, although I am subconsciously aware of them ... just as you would be in your training, given your conscious recognition of how you 'manage' your hare and carrying that over to compare to your dog. But it is necessary or even more succinct to do so when speaking of it .... especially in the written word.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Erny

[percyk]

"My hare will deliberately pretend to nibble on something he knows I am eventually going to get up and chase him away from if he is in the mood to be chased. In all honesty, I am totally okay with him using that to tell me he wants to be chased, and I am totally okay with obliging him. The dogs don't seem to use it to their advantage like that, at least so far..."

hi Corvus

i read your post with interest

i have had one bunny in my life so i cant comment on any hare or bunny behaviour but i was wondering - do animals - any animals actually 'pretend' to do be doing anything in order to get its owner to do something like chase them? ( i guess dolphins and apes are smarter than we ever thought possible)

i know dogs 'invit'e us to play but does a hare 'pretend to nibble at something' so you get up?

i dont know how intelligent hares are so id like to learn more about this - can they work these things out or does it just look like theyre doing it on purpose...

great to have a zoologist on board here!

i wouldve liked to have trained as one too!

[Luke W]

"My hare will deliberately pretend to nibble on something he knows I am eventually going to get up and chase him away from if he is in the mood to be chased. In all honesty, I am totally okay with him using that to tell me he wants to be chased, and I am totally okay with obliging him. The dogs don't seem to use it to their advantage like that, at least so far..."

hi Corvus

i read your post with interest

i have had one bunny in my life so i cant comment on any hare or bunny behaviour but i was wondering - do animals - any animals actually 'pretend' to do be doing anything in order to get its owner to do something like chase them? ( i guess dolphins and apes are smarter than we ever thought possible)

i know dogs 'invit'e us to play but does a hare 'pretend to nibble at something' so you get up?

i dont know how intelligent hares are so id like to learn more about this - can they work these things out or does it just look like theyre doing it on purpose...

great to have a zoologist on board here!

i wouldve liked to have trained as one too!

It's all conditioning.

The use of the word 'pretend' is problematic...

Behavior that is rewarded is more likely to be repeated.

So...

The first time the hare chews on the cord, hare gets chased (reward).

The next time the hare chews on the cord, hare gets chased (reward).

The behavior is more likely to be repeated.

No different than the way my dog runs to his mat the second he hears me heading toward the lounge room.

Was he 'pretending' he was lying on his mat?

No - it's simply that he's been conditioned that lying on his mat is likely to get a reward. He can't help it.

Edited October 6, 2008 by Luke W

[percyk]

"My hare will deliberately pretend to nibble on something he knows I am eventually going to get up and chase him away from if he is in the mood to be chased. In all honesty, I am totally okay with him using that to tell me he wants to be chased, and I am totally okay with obliging him. The dogs don't seem to use it to their advantage like that, at least so far..."

hi Corvus

i read your post with interest

i have had one bunny in my life so i cant comment on any hare or bunny behaviour but i was wondering - do animals - any animals actually 'pretend' to do be doing anything in order to get its owner to do something like chase them? ( i guess dolphins and apes are smarter than we ever thought possible)

i know dogs 'invit'e us to play but does a hare 'pretend to nibble at something' so you get up?

i dont know how intelligent hares are so id like to learn more about this - can they work these things out or does it just look like theyre doing it on purpose...

great to have a zoologist on board here!

i wouldve liked to have trained as one too!

It's all conditioning.

The use of the word 'pretend' is problematic...

Behavior that is rewarded is more likely to be repeated.

So...

The first time the hare chews on the cord, hare gets chased (reward).

The next time the hare chews on the cord, hare gets chased (reward).

The behavior is more likely to be repeated.

No different than the way my dog runs to his mat the second he hears me heading toward the lounge room.

Was he 'pretending' he was lying on his mat?

No - it's simply that he's been conditioned that lying on his mat is likely to get a reward. He can't help it.

ok i get it a bit - thanks Luke

just didnt think that hares stopped at chewing and just pretended - thought theyd either do it or not! not just lower their heads

the bit about the mat i get - thats not pretending to me

pretending means ( to me) that youre faking it

your dog might know hes going to be admonished for being off his mat or rewarded for being on the mat - thats clear

i just wonder if any animal can actually feign something....

[Luke W]

re 'deceiving, faking, feigning'

An interesting thing to think about.

I guess it comes down to being able to judge what the animal is thinking about.

I'm no qualified animal behaviorist so I did a google search ...

It seems animals do 'pretend/deceive'...

Here's a link about chimps:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/01/24/d...=20070124123000

Fascinating stuff.

[Erny]

It seems animals do 'pretend/deceive'...

I haven't taken a moment to check the link out yet, but yes, I believe there is a "pretend/deceive" element that our animals learn. Although I think often-times it is not pretence necessarily .... I think it is that it is their perception that they have been rewarded for that very action. After all, wouldn't we be likely to act very quickly when we see any of our animals 'about' to chew on a (eg) power cord?

Just the same as my 4 mo pup has worked out that he gets a reward for toileting outside. He occasionally tries it on for showing the 'posture' position of a toilet squat without needing to empty anything. There is a current thread in puppy forum which shows this is not uncommon. Although I'm obviously not in puppy's head to know his precise thoughts, I do not believe it is about 'deception' but about his belief in the possibility that maybe he will get a reward for the posturing alone. Perhaps I've even inadvertently rewarded him on one ocassion for it .... thinking he'd gone to the toilet or perhaps offering the reward too early.

[Luke W]

It seems animals do 'pretend/deceive'...

I haven't taken a moment to check the link out yet, but yes, I believe there is a "pretend/deceive" element that our animals learn. Although I think often-times it is not pretence necessarily .... I think it is that it is their perception that they have been rewarded for that very action. After all, wouldn't we be likely to act very quickly when we see any of our animals 'about' to chew on a (eg) power cord?

Just the same as my 4 mo pup has worked out that he gets a reward for toileting outside. He occasionally tries it on for showing the 'posture' position of a toilet squat without needing to empty anything. There is a current thread in puppy forum which shows this is not uncommon. Although I'm obviously not in puppy's head to know his precise thoughts, I do not believe it is about 'deception' but about his belief in the possibility that maybe he will get a reward for the posturing alone. Perhaps I've even inadvertently rewarded him on one ocassion for it .... thinking he'd gone to the toilet or perhaps offering the reward too early.

Yes, it's always going to be difficult to separate 'deception' from 'behavior that's been rewarded in the past'

Re toilet posture...Does the pup know it's getting rewarded foir actually toileting or simply assuming the position?

Does he assume the position for the reward and then thinks, well, while I'm assuming the position for my reward, I may as well have a piss...)

The pup wouldn't even need to be rewarded for assuming the position without actually going, the key is...has the pup NOT been rewarded for assuming the position without actually going? Because that might be what adds the extra bit of information to the pup (shaping if you like). Not only do I need to assume the position, I actually need to piss.

I think it's possible to design experiments to see whether animals can deceive by carefully removing the possibility of previously rewarded behavior (I think!)

Edited October 6, 2008 by Luke W

[corvus]

i know dogs 'invit'e us to play but does a hare 'pretend to nibble at something' so you get up?

i dont know how intelligent hares are so id like to learn more about this - can they work these things out or does it just look like theyre doing it on purpose...

great to have a zoologist on board here!

i wouldve liked to have trained as one too!

It's all conditioning.

The use of the word 'pretend' is problematic...

Behavior that is rewarded is more likely to be repeated.

So...

The first time the hare chews on the cord, hare gets chased (reward).

The next time the hare chews on the cord, hare gets chased (reward).

The behavior is more likely to be repeated.

No different than the way my dog runs to his mat the second he hears me heading toward the lounge room.

Was he 'pretending' he was lying on his mat?

No - it's simply that he's been conditioned that lying on his mat is likely to get a reward. He can't help it.

Ha ha, well as it turns out that hare of mine has led me to question a lot of things about what animals are and aren't capable of. The interesting thing is, being chased is not always a reward for him. Sometimes he likes it, but most of the time if he's trying to chew something, he'd rather be left to chew it. So "ah-ah" works about 99% of the time to get him to leave something alone, but the other 1% of the time he's in a playful mood and seems to be deliberately going for objects that I have chased him off in the past. He nibbles on them, but I've seen him do it more like toying with his lips than genuine chewing. I've come to interpret it as "pretending" but it probably isn't, really. It's probably more like he's trying to illicit an "ah-ah" because he wants to be chased and knows from experience that putting this object in his mouth usually does that.

I should probably mention that I've found working with a wild animal more different to working with a domestic animal than, say, working with a rabbit and working with a dog. So the hare was born in the wild and he definitely behaves very differently to my domestic rabbit, or my domestic dog, or domestic cats or birds, for that matter. My rabbit behaves more like my dogs than my hare, if that makes sense. I'm beginning to wonder if domesticating an animal really changes the way they think quite significantly. I think my hare, while not nearly as smart as a dog, has a kind of animal genius that I haven't seen yet in a domestic animal, although my mother's very smart Vallhund gets close sometimes. The hare is a genius at my body language and can practically read my mind and communicates very well, but he doesn't really get verbal communication and can be frustratingly flighty and unpredictable. I think for that reason my comparisons and comparisons between dolphins and dogs can be a bit problematic sometimes. I run into troubles when I assume the differences are known and obvious. They are to me and when I make those comparisons I'm cheerfully ignoring a lot of fairly big and important differences and focusing for a moment on the fairly vague similarities. I get frustrated when people carefully point out that hares and dogs are not the same but it's my fault for being impatient and not including disclaimers.

I think the problem with managing is that you may have to adjust your expectations. If you want a dog that will be good off leash but are having trouble overcoming its prey drive for example, you could decide to persist with training to get what you wanted however you can or you could decide to manage by never letting the dog off leash in unenclosed areas. I know someone overseas with a rescued Chow that hates children and strangers. The owner has decided it's better for the dog and people if they manage this rather than trying to rehab. The Chow gets locked away so it can't see the kids or strangers that occasionally visit. The Chow is less stressed and the owner doesn't have to deal with the potential of a dog that might bite someone. There's a lot of people that think management is the wrong choice in that situation, but there are also a lot of people that think the dog should have been pts. Who can say in the end what is right but the person who loves the dog and lives with it every day and night?

[percyk]

It seems animals do 'pretend/deceive'...

I haven't taken a moment to check the link out yet, but yes, I believe there is a "pretend/deceive" element that our animals learn. Although I think often-times it is not pretence necessarily .... I think it is that it is their perception that they have been rewarded for that very action. After all, wouldn't we be likely to act very quickly when we see any of our animals 'about' to chew on a (eg) power cord?

Just the same as my 4 mo pup has worked out that he gets a reward for toileting outside. He occasionally tries it on for showing the 'posture' position of a toilet squat without needing to empty anything. There is a current thread in puppy forum which shows this is not uncommon. Although I'm obviously not in puppy's head to know his precise thoughts, I do not believe it is about 'deception' but about his belief in the possibility that maybe he will get a reward for the posturing alone. Perhaps I've even inadvertently rewarded him on one ocassion for it .... thinking he'd gone to the toilet or perhaps offering the reward too early.

wow Erny

pretending to wee >>that is amazing

i wouldve rung the vet suspecting itd be some straining/ blockage lol!~

[percyk]

re 'deceiving, faking, feigning'

An interesting thing to think about.

I guess it comes down to being able to judge what the animal is thinking about.

I'm no qualified animal behaviorist so I did a google search ...

It seems animals do 'pretend/deceive'...

Here's a link about chimps:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/01/24/d...=20070124123000

Fascinating stuff.

that is interesting but i wouldve expected apes to be able to pull something off

they can construct requests by using flash cards - who was that chimp lady that worked with them for years?

not diana somebody who did gorillas in the mist - someone else....

thanks for googling!

birds are interesting too - seems that african greys can do sums with those plastic fridge magnet numbers and can ask something in context - like 'porridge' when youre eating porridge

i findthat sooo cool

solittle is known about pet parrots - hope they find out more in my lifetime!

[Erny]

wow Erny

pretending to wee >>that is amazing

i wouldve rung the vet suspecting itd be some straining/ blockage lol!~

Rest assured that his plumbing is working just fine .

As I mentioned, I don't think he was pretending to pee. More that he was hoping his posturing would earn him a treat. I guess much like they do when they offer their latest trick you've just taught them. Proven by the fact that shortly after he did this he let go a pee where he wasn't supposed to, LOL. My mistake!!! ;)

I too think the work with parrots and their latest revelation of what they are capable of is very interesting, amazing and delightful.

ETA : Sorry Isiss. Seems I have hi-jacked your thread, or at least taken it outwards and beyond your intended topic. How are you going with little pup?

Edited October 6, 2008 by Erny

[percyk]

wow Erny

pretending to wee >>that is amazing

i wouldve rung the vet suspecting itd be some straining/ blockage lol!~

Rest assured that his plumbing is working just fine .

As I mentioned, I don't think he was pretending to pee. More that he was hoping his posturing would earn him a treat. I guess much like they do when they offer their latest trick you've just taught them. Proven by the fact that shortly after he did this he let go a pee where he wasn't supposed to, LOL. My mistake!!! ;)

I too think the work with parrots and their latest revelation of what they are capable of is very interesting, amazing and delightful.

ETA : Sorry Isiss. Seems I have hi-jacked your thread, or at least taken it outwards and beyond your intended topic. How are you going with little pup?

yeah sorry Isiss - i was only thinking this morning that the thread got a bit off track but thanks for stimulating the discussion

i have learned something once again

thanks Erny for clarifying LOL

[jenz0r]

i find purely positive training quite challenging with our pup, the bully breed in him makes him very stubborn and he pushes his naughtiness to the limits. our trainer says just to ignore, ignore, ignore when he's not doing what hes meant to.... but i find a correction here and there makes the training quicker and eaiser.

i say do what works for you ;)

So if he was jumping up or nipping you're just supposed to ignore it?? As I said before, its nigh on impossible to use such methods to extinguish behaviour the dog finds self rewarding. If he finds it enjoyable, he'll keep doing it. I don't think its coincidence that most 'problem' dog behaviors fall into the self rewarding category.

It's only IF he finds the behaviour brings consistent negative consequences that you'll see it diminish or extinguish. You don't have to be abusive to make behaviour unrewarding. Removing yourself or him could be enough.

I always smile to myself when purely positive trainers suggest that putting a behaviour on cue can cure problems. Barking is the classic example. My dogs sit on cue. That hardly means they don't sit at other times though now does it.

Ask a purely postive trainer how to cure animal chasing.. and don't hold your breath on a practical response.

i wish someone had told me that just after we brought him home! you're so right. he found it ever so fun to chase after our pant legs, grab on and pull, jump up and bite our sleeves, steal the washing out of the basket and run around the back yard with it... and i was getting so frustrated and anxious because the "ignoring" his bad behaviour wasnt doing ANYTHING! it was fun for him to just do it!

my partner eventually got the sh!ts with me constantly yelling out to come remove the puppy from my jeans so we tried giving him a firm tap on the nose whenever he grabbed on, and a big growly UHHH NO at the same time. (our positive trainer would have a cow if she knew this lol..her solution was to always carry a toy that i can substitute with him in return for having my pants back, but as if a toy is as fun as ripping my pants!!).

he has now learned that biting is naughty and not on!! he's stopped it almost entirely. sometimes he still gets excited and tries to jump up but as soon as he sees me pointing at him and hears the growl he knows to stop... i dont know how i would have got to this stage by using purely positive techniques?

[Guest Willow]

i find purely positive training quite challenging with our pup, the bully breed in him makes him very stubborn and he pushes his naughtiness to the limits. our trainer says just to ignore, ignore, ignore when he's not doing what hes meant to.... but i find a correction here and there makes the training quicker and eaiser.

i say do what works for you

You might enjoy this book : "When Pigs Fly: training success with impossible dogs" by Jane Killon. Jane is a bull terrier breeder in the US, and it's a really good read, even if you don't want to follow all the techniques in there.

[jenz0r]

thanks willow i will give that a look

yeh i felt like the unachiever of the puppy-class, the labs and cavs were all being well behaved and everyone seemed amazed to hear the naughty puppy stories and questions i kept throwing at the trainer hehe. she is a great trainer but i dont think has had much experience training bully types... ohh the frustration!

thanks again!

[Guest Willow]

thanks willow i will give that a look

yeh i felt like the unachiever of the puppy-class, the labs and cavs were all being well behaved and everyone seemed amazed to hear the naughty puppy stories and questions i kept throwing at the trainer hehe. she is a great trainer but i dont think has had much experience training bully types... ohh the frustration!

thanks again!

No worries! Even if you just have a laugh at the stuff the authors dogs got up to before she started training them, it will make you feel better!!!

I have a stafford too......great boy, he's quite compliant normally, but he has his moments

Apologies for getting Off Topic