Trouble With Down

[squirt80]

My lab and I are having an issue with down . We are in class one I would love to move him on to class two. He has a good recall, he walks beautifully on heel, has resonable automatic sits and stands, he can sit stay and down stay (if I get him into a down). BUT he won't go into down without a treat , I have tried varying the times he gets a treat but after one time without getting a treat he won't go down, unless he knows there is a treat in my hand (even then I don't always give him the treat) I even tried just having the smell of th treat on my hand but that only works once and then he won't do it again. As long as there is a treat there he will go down. No treat no down ;) . Has anyone got any tips for me? getting a bit frustrated

[Rusky]

do you notice any stiffness or slowness in his drop when he is not under command, does he 'flop' easily ? could he have some discomfort? if he doesn't and he is working beautifully in every other area he may simply not understand what you are asking of him. Reward consistantly for every drop no matter his postion and make sure your hand and voice signals are clear. Drop his treat between his paws when he drops then go down with him and massage him, make it fun for him and a pleasant experience.Once he is dropping consistantly then start the position reward. Sometimes it can take a while for the penny to drop.

[Leema]

Taken from the levels site:

DOWN

Dog Downs from Sit on one cue only. The handler may use the dog’s name to get her attention before a voice cue. This behaviour must be done with no treats or clicker anywhere in the room or area.

DISCUSSION: This is a "blue behaviour": it must be tested with no treats or clicker on you or near you. In fact, not in the same ROOM. Not MUCH different from the L1 Down – unless you've spent too much time luring the behaviour! We're starting early to show the dog that just because there are no treats or clicker doesn't mean there's no possibility of her being rewarded for giving you a behaviour.

EASY BEGINNINGS: You already have the dog giving you a Down with two cues. Now you're going to drop one cue. If you've lured the Down, you probably have a good Down signal at this point. In fact, she's probably not even listening to your Down voice cue. Try it out. Ask for a Down JUST with a hand signal. Pretend you've got a treat in your hand and make the luring motion. Click and treat when she goes down.

That's the easy way out. If you want a single voice cue for Down, you'll have to work a little harder (see Adding A Cue).

Now, how to get rid of the treats? First, get them off your body. Put them on a counter top or table. Stand near the counter, and ask for the Down. Use everything you've got, just as if you DID have the treats on you. When she goes down, say YES!, and get her a treat off the counter. Try it again. See, dear? Even if I don't have them in my hand, you're still going to get one! Amazing, isn't it!

PROBLEM SOLVING:

SHE WON'T LIE DOWN IF I DON'T HAVE TREATS: Clicker trainers, especially new converts, are usually quick to want to get rid of the rewards. They envision a lifetime of wearing a pocketful of wieners, of pulling change out of a pocket at the store and getting two dimes, a nickel, and five bits of kibble, and they want to pull the plug on THAT idea as soon as possible. Well, forget it. Do you go to work and get paid every day for 6 months and then for the rest of your life without getting paid?

Don't worry, you're not going to have to carry a pocketful of kibble for the rest of your life, but don't be too fast to tell the dog that!

Put the treats and clicker in your pocket. Make sure the dog sees this happening. Go to the counter, take them out of your pocket and put them on the counter. Rapid-Fire ten treats from the counter to your dog (not quite as rapid as if you had them in your hand all along, but that's OK. We're trying to explain to the dog that the treats are available, even if they aren't on you). Now pretend to pick up another one, ask for the Down, say YES! And get another treat from the counter to give her.

ADDING A CUE: You want to add a single voice cue to your hand signal. There are two ways to add a new cue to a behaviour you already have. One way is to start from scratch. Sit with the clicker and treats, signal a couple of Downs until she's thinking "Wow, Down is really paying off today!" At that point, after each click, she'll be offering you another Down. And you know that when she's offering you a behaviour again and again, knowing it's going to pay off, you can starting putting a name on it, so simply start saying "Down" WITHOUT giving the hand signal to tell her what her behaviour is called. When you've named it a hundred times while she's offering it, try asking her for a Down when she wasn't thinking about it. If you get it, fantastic. If you don't, name it another hundred times and ask again.

The second way to add a new cue to an old behaviour is to use it with the old cue BUT hand signals are very powerful to a dog. If you use a hand signal AND a voice cue at the same time, the dog won't really notice the voice cue at all. Handler is thinking "Dumb dog, I've used this voice cue 800 times and she STILL doesn't know it!" while the dog is thinking "Why is he blabbing and then getting mad? Where's my hand signal so I know what to do?" Remember, though, that dogs are superstitious animals. They like one thing to predict another thing. So you can add a new cue by using FIRST the new cue ("Down"), THEN the old cue (hand signal to Down). Do this often enough and the dog will think "Gee, every time he says that word, he gives me a hand signal to Down. I might as well Down when I hear the word!"

CONTINUING EDUCATION: It's time to start thinking about other forms of payment. What would the dog like? Could you give her a good back-scratch every fifth time? Or dance around a bit and clap your hands (sounds silly, but mine like that)? If you ask the dog for a Down when she wants to go outside, you can reward the Down by opening the door. Ask for a Down when she wants you to throw a ball, and reward the Down by throwing the ball. Think about all the ways you can add these "life rewards" to her training. By asking for a behaviour before you do things for her, you're forging a better relationship AND building more self-control into the dog.

Your problem for right now, though, is how to move away from those treats. When she knows that she'll get a reward when the reward is on the counter instead of in your hand or pocket, it's time to stand further away from the counter. Each time you practise, go one step further away. After you get the behaviour and say YES!, go back to the counter for the treat. Pretty soon you'll be working in one room, and the treats will be in another room!

Next, change where you put the treats. Put them on the dining room table. Remember, when you change ONE thing, you make everything else easier, so when you put the treats somewhere different, you start RIGHT BACK BESIDE HER and move slowly away from them as you did before. After each dog's meal, I measure out the next meal and put the dish in a kitchen cupboard. Wherever I am in the house (or yard, eventually), when the dog does something that I want to reward, and there are no available or appropriate life rewards, I'll say YES! and we both go back to the kitchen to get a kibble. I also keep a little SEALED jar of kibble near the computer so when I see the pup go by carrying something she shouldn't have, I can call her over and reward her for giving it to me.

[dogdude]

Give the command at dinner time, as in the triangle of temptation method. He will very quickly work it out. When training at home, release to a food bag rather than having treat in your hand. He will never have need to look for a treat in your hand then.

[shoemonster]

Also I found doing lots of rapid drop sit drop sit, and really getting them excited got them dropping more enthusiasticly. so revving them up maybe saying, ready, ready and then drop

When you really have their attention, say it quickly, and excited, and when they do it praise the hell out of them and then give them a treat at the end of the praise, if they are a really excitable dog it might be too much for them, but a more reserved dog should react well to it

This is assuming they "know" the drop command

Edited September 24, 2008 by shoemonster

[squirt80]

Thanks guys I am thinking now that it may be getting a bit boring for him and what I have gotten from you guys is I need to make it fun he is only 9 months old so he is doing well, I am getting frustrated which takes the fun out of it for both of us .

I like this Idea

Put the treats and clicker in your pocket. Make sure the dog sees this happening. Go to the counter, take them out of your pocket and put them on the counter. Rapid-Fire ten treats from the counter to your dog (not quite as rapid as if you had them in your hand all along, but that's OK. We're trying to explain to the dog that the treats are available, even if they aren't on you). Now pretend to pick up another one, ask for the Down, say YES! And get another treat from the counter to give her.

I am sure he knows the drop command, he will do it as long as he thinks there is food the trainer at training had him going into a down about three times and then said you try, he wouldn't do it for me, she tried again and he went into down but the next time she tried he wouldn't.

does he 'flop' easily

he flops all the time esspically for a belly rub. :D

So I am gonna make it a bit more fun I think the sit down sit might work for him more of a game.

Thank you all so much gonna try some of those things with him ASAP

[alanglen]

If it helps, my nearly 9 month old chockie was starting to get a little bored with obedience too! Never forget, it's meant to be fun! She does everything beautifully but is just getting bored, we have startng to reduce the training and go back to puppy games and the enthusiasm is rapidly returning!

[corvus]

Kivi went through that stage, too. And for ages he wouldn't drop without sitting first. We just practiced and practiced. Getting him to drop for his meals broke his reservations about drop. My partner gets him doing it very enthusiastically by doing a big, exaggerrated hand signal using his whole arm. The hand starts well above his head and he says "Kivi" in this "get ready" tone he uses. Once he has Kivi's attention, he waits for a moment, then the whole arm comes down quite fast and Kivi hits the ground. Increasing the value of the reward, practicing, and making it a bit exciting has cured him of wanting a treat every time. He now hits the deck very nicely even for a verbal reward. Drop is one of those things a lot of dogs don't really like doing. It's a bit of a vulnerable position to be in. You've got to make it really worthwhile to do it!

[squirt80]

it helps, my nearly 9 month old chockie was starting to get a little bored with obedience too! Never forget, it's meant to be fun! She does everything beautifully but is just getting bored, we have startng to reduce the training and go back to puppy games and the enthusiasm is rapidly returning!

I have been trying to make it more fun for him this week , much more enthusiasim in my voice and still gving him a lot of treats trying to make it worth it and I get what you mean by reducing the training time to, he is getting I just have to kepp working on it and not take it so seriously

[dogdude]

All obedience lessons should be played as a game IMO if you want to keep the dogs interest, particulary if you want to trial.

In the learning stages, you need to train every day in short bursts. If your dog is getting bored, then you should look at the way you are training. There is no exuse for a bored dog doing obedience.

Training 5 or six times a day is great, if its in very short bursts and the learning is done in the form of a game.

[Lablover]

Normally at obedience clubs, downs are trained from the sit position, is this a normal progression at your club?

Dogs drop all the time, as you see your dog drop around the house (if he is an inside dog), use these opportunities for success.

Some dogs feel nervous (for want of a better word), in the down position (possibly frightened for whatever reason). You may like to train off your bed or place your dog in a higher (comfortable)position. Having your dog higher, you can have the added advantage of the lure/reward lower to teach as long as he is stable on a sit or whatever position.

Down is a simple, once taught. With good timing you will get there - so will your dog!!!!!!!!

[rivergem]

Another point to be aware of is elbow dysplasia. River, my black labby was exactly the same as you describe... he was good at heeling, sitting, staying, recall etc etc but for some reason could never get him to drop, even with food in front of his face. A little further down the track due to a slight limp in one of his back legs, I took him to a Specialist and xrays showed bilateral elbow dysplasia. Hopefully this is not the case for you - but I thought it worth noting.