Confidence Building

[ness]

Luke W - so I would only throw the ball 4-5 times and put it away while the dog still wants more . I laugh as I was training my baby and using food to teach her to hold a Dumbbell. She decided she had had enough of that game and went off to retrieve a toy for me to use instead .

[Luke W]

Luke W - so I would only throw the ball 4-5 times and put it away while the dog still wants more . I laugh as I was training my baby and using food to teach her to hold a Dumbbell. She decided she had had enough of that game and went off to retrieve a toy for me to use instead .

Yeah - that's what I do now. I throw it only a couple of times!!

I know you can debark dogs...can you desniff them?

[Kavik]

You could always do tracking and put that sniffing to use

[ness]

I am actually hanging out to take her herding as she seems to be a natural on the ducks at the park . The one herding day we have been to so far she does have some instinct so it would be fun to try now she is a bit older.

[JulesP]

I do finally have a ball obsessed pet. Do retrieves for a couple of hours every night.....unfortunately it is my Birman kitten!

Brock's sister is also not very fussed about toys and would rather have a belly rub. Luckily both dogs are focussed and will work regardless of outside influences. They both have the good border collie work ethic!

I agree with Vicki when she said speed would come from confidence. With Brock I am just trying not to worry him and make the whole agility thing fun. I am hoping the speed will come.

[Luke W]

You could always do tracking and put that sniffing to use

I don't know much about tracking but for some reason I don't find it particularly appealing?!? Maybe because there's not enough handler input?

I bet he'd be good at it though.

He loves to back track along places we've been walking. Nose down, bum up...

[Luke W]

Is it better to have the retrieve drive than the tug drive?

I would think it's better to have a desire to tug - it's easier to use ity as a reward in competition situations - maybe I'm wrong.

[Kavik]

The reason I think tracking might work with Diesel is because of less handler input I find scent work of any description fascinating but difficult because of course we have no idea what it is exactly they are smelling, and you have to trust the dog and your training.

[ness]

Luke W - I would think you would want an element of both. It would also depend on what sport you wished to compete in. However its handy to be able to have the tug toy at the end of a sequence in agility for instance and then have them bring it back to you and tug after. Obedience in the higher classes consists of a number of retrieves and if you have a dog who naturally enjoys retrieving it can certainly help.

[Luke W]

Luke W - I would think you would want an element of both. It would also depend on what sport you wished to compete in. However its handy to be able to have the tug toy at the end of a sequence in agility for instance and then have them bring it back to you and tug after. Obedience in the higher classes consists of a number of retrieves and if you have a dog who naturally enjoys retrieving it can certainly help.

Thanks Ness.

I plan to compete in both agility and obedience.

[dogdude]

I've often wondered if a natural retrieve and a formal retrieve mean the same thing to the dog. I really don't think they do. During a natural retrieve, its about the chase and catch.

During the formal, its more about gaining satisfaction after the fact?

Having a natural retrieve and desire to tug often go hand in hand anyway. Tugging is normally taught with a chase element in it to begin with.

Edited September 24, 2008 by dogdude

[ness]

Not convinced dogdude. Having a natural retriever means you have a dog who is more inclined to pick up objects and therefore making it easier to teach a formal retrieve. Although I have a non-retriever who was taught the dumbbell using food and has lovely DB retrieves so its not a prerequisite but still I think it does make the job easier.

[Luke W]

Not convinced dogdude. Having a natural retriever means you have a dog who is more inclined to pick up objects and therefore making it easier to teach a formal retrieve. Although I have a non-retriever who was taught the dumbbell using food and has lovely DB retrieves so its not a prerequisite but still I think it does make the job easier.

I'm well on my way then. Mine loves to pick up objects.

Socks, underpants, sticks, dropped food

[dogdude]

Hi Ness

I don't disagree with the points you highlighted regarding being easier to teach etc.

However I really don't think there is a great advantage in having a natural desire to retreive versus a high drive in another form used for retrieving ie) tugging. (Not talking about teaching, just while working.)

Similar to your dog, my Oscar has no desire to do an informal retrieve, but will quite happily do formal ones all day, as long as there is some other way to gain drive satisfaction that suits him.

Do you think a natural retrieve and a formal one, use drive in the same way?

[ness]

I guess it depends on the dog to some degree. I don't discount if the dog is high drive for something (whether that is food or toy) then it makes the process easier. So if your dog is high food drive then yep you can get an enthusiastic retrieve. It also depends how you do informal retrieves. There are elements that are the same. Dog gets to race after an object and pick it up. You can watch some very high drive dogs practically explode when they are released to the object. Its the same explosive release you would get if you released them to chase the toy informally. I guess what it comes down to is how much desire has been built for the exercise but hell I know what I want to work from.

[Lablover]

Talking about this with some friends and would love to hear your thoughts.

Say you have a dog with moderate drive, but one that is only half interested in food/ toys.... or a dog that likes food/ toys, but can't really focus with the stressors of a trial.

We all know that if we had a dog struggling with weaving, contacts or tunnels, that we break it down and make the behaviour really worthwhile. Usually the end result is that this obstacle becomes their most favourite to perform.

What are some things you would do in general to build confidence in a dog.... both generally and specifically....

A few examples - you have a fast dog for agility, but when you get to a trial, it is always slower because of the stressors presented to it (close proximity of other dogs etc)

or - you have a dog that is of moderate speed and could go much faster... what rewards and how would you use them to try and increase speed? Imagine this dog is not crazy driven over it's toys etc.

Would love to hear your responses

Do you have an edition of an US magazine, Clear Run???, which contains some sweeeeeeet ideas.

Mind one I only have this particular issue (which includes my favourite author - Pamela Reid) focusing on agility ---drive/control (Thanks Tim). Happy to send it to you.

[Jigsaw]

- I have a nearly 6 month old pup residing in the house at present and what can she do. Er she tugs, sits and drops and is a mad keen retriever and obsessed about chasing her ball. Nothing else in the world matters apart from her ball and she will do ANYTHING possible to get me to throw it. Suffice to say second time around I wasn't going to have a dog who wouldn't play. So from the time she was a baby my new girl has been taking to agility trials, obedience trials, out and about and yep we just play.

I have a nine month old koolie who is ball and toy obsessed. Tennis balls are banned in the house as they roll under furniture and have to be retrieved by a human NOW . She will pick anything up and carry it in her mouth - yesterday a full poo bag put aside by another dog owner for later retrieval (owner was standing nearby and was horrified!) and moments later a dead rat. She will play tug with any sock, toy, article if asked to "tug". She's not very good at "give" with balls, so we are working on it. She is however so toy driven that she will not wee if I am outside in the backyard with her (unless on leash in the backyard) as she wants to play. A pain in the neck late at night - I have to peek out to see if she's weeing otherwise if she sees me she will have a toy in her mouth and stand next to her large soccer ball (she likes to have two on the go). She waits to see if I'm going outside.

However she is also highly distracted when out of the house and is reactive to everything - as in her head and ears are permanently moving! I am reading "Control Unleashed" and it has some great ideas to build on. I am taking her to as many different locations as I can and just asking the basics with high reward rate in these new situations. I have practised since she was a small puppy putting her in a sit and then rubbing her chest in a circular motion and praising her for calm behaviour. Her eyes soften and may almost close and I can feel her relax. I think small steps in building up confidence - not asking too much under distraction and setting things up so the dog doesn't fail are important. And of course our own reaction to what we perceive as a fail by the dog.

[boxagirl]

I think with Diesel he is definitely picking up on my body language - I know I act differently when we're at a big event (dog day out, trial) than I do at training. I get frustrated because he can be so good at training, and I struggle to get him to work at all at a busy place. He will not ever tug consistently, even at home. He is getting better with the squeaky toy that Kaos loves. He is generally very good with food, but even sometimes that will not work and he will shut down. I have found that simply going and clicking and treating for any attention has helped with focus.

He is now 4 1/2 though, and I can't help but feel that we have given obedience a fair go (though not entered a trial) so may scrap that idea, maybe it just isn't for him. I am hoping that tracking, being a more independent sport where he can work it out himself, and only having to focus on the track instead of the many things in obedience may work. We are going to give it a go anyway. It may be that when things start to get complicated in tracking we run into the same problems. But for now, at the beginning, he is keen and happy when he knows we are doing tracking, and that is all I can ask for

Diesel sounds exactly like Bondi. When she is put into stressful situations she just shuts down, wont take food or play or anything. She lags in heeling, and does all exercised in slow motion when she is like this. It is really frustrating because she can do all the exercises perfect, but is just too nervy to trial perhaps. I think the only way to overcome this would be to take her down to the canine assoc. LOTS and get her comfortable in that environment, although I dont think they encourage that unless you are trialing? (perth)