leopuppy04 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Talking about this with some friends and would love to hear your thoughts. Say you have a dog with moderate drive, but one that is only half interested in food/ toys.... or a dog that likes food/ toys, but can't really focus with the stressors of a trial. We all know that if we had a dog struggling with weaving, contacts or tunnels, that we break it down and make the behaviour really worthwhile. Usually the end result is that this obstacle becomes their most favourite to perform. What are some things you would do in general to build confidence in a dog.... both generally and specifically.... A few examples - you have a fast dog for agility, but when you get to a trial, it is always slower because of the stressors presented to it (close proximity of other dogs etc) or - you have a dog that is of moderate speed and could go much faster... what rewards and how would you use them to try and increase speed? Imagine this dog is not crazy driven over it's toys etc. Would love to hear your responses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 This isn't really an answer, but I've just started reading Control Unleashed - which is program to assist with these sorts of issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 This isn't really an answer, but I've just started reading Control Unleashed - which is program to assist with these sorts of issues. Yes - it's a fantastic book for these sorts of issues ... This is what has sparked my thread actually as Leslie covers so much of this. But I guess I'm looking forward to some ideas of *exactly* how someone might tackle these issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Leo I've been through this with my white girl. I found that doing something until she found it "old hat" was the key.. and having no demands other than making it as positive for her as possible. I"m careful about where I sit at trials, about providing a crate she's familiar with and comfortable being in and about making sure she gets plenty of time out to relax. Her favourite place is on my lap. Maturity has made a big difference to her. Most folk don't believe me when I tell them how timid and uncertain she used to be. But you also have to be realistic. She is not a fast dog.. she is faster than she used to be but no record breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I am reading this with interest as I have this problem with Diesel. Though am thinking of ditching obedience and trying tracking instead, as I have problems getting him to focus on obedience when in a busy place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 OK - things I have found particularly useful: *teaching the dog something they are totally confident in - eg: touch... and use that to build their confidence.... see - don't worry about that over there - just touch my hand! *From CU (control unleashed) the "look at that!" game and the "Give me a break" Game. *building up the drive for toys in a variety of areas *Teaching a default behaviour such as a down or sit as a time out. *Providing a safe place such as a crate/ mat *Exposing the dog to the environment rather than shutting them away - so taking them out and about lots at trials and playing 'Give me a break' and 'look at that' games rather than only bringing them out to work... makes it too stressful then *Bring them to HEAPS of trials before entering - even setting up 1-2 obstacles on the sidelines and practicing one jump games, or other short sequences and rewarding like you have never rewarded before! Hehe - now I'm worried nobody else will come up with suggestions!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 OK - things I have found particularly useful:*teaching the dog something they are totally confident in - eg: touch... and use that to build their confidence.... see - don't worry about that over there - just touch my hand! *From CU (control unleashed) the "look at that!" game and the "Give me a break" Game. *building up the drive for toys in a variety of areas *Teaching a default behaviour such as a down or sit as a time out. *Providing a safe place such as a crate/ mat *Exposing the dog to the environment rather than shutting them away - so taking them out and about lots at trials and playing 'Give me a break' and 'look at that' games rather than only bringing them out to work... makes it too stressful then *Bring them to HEAPS of trials before entering - even setting up 1-2 obstacles on the sidelines and practicing one jump games, or other short sequences and rewarding like you have never rewarded before! Hehe - now I'm worried nobody else will come up with suggestions!!! After my obedience class, I hang around for an hour or so in view of the agility classes, watching the dogs go past, soaking up the atmosphere, with Barkly on lead by my side. I do a lot of clicking and rewarding for looking at me. I'm hoping this helps me when the time comes for trialling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I am quite big on working with what you have got. So if you know your dog reduces in time at trials but is clean then you could work on how to get around the round quicker. How you can help the dog. If the dog is slowing down because of things going on around it then I would be working on pack drive and becoming the centre of the universe for that dog. This is probably the main training tool I work on. Currently backfiring as am having trouble with rear crosses, lol. Also look at what you are doing in the ring. Are you nervous? Amazing how a sensitive dog can pick up on owner stress. Brock dropped off in performance at every single one of his module tests because I got worried!!! Didn't realise I was going it. With obedience I also worked to a much higher level so the drop off at a trial didn't effect the performance too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I go through a set routine for all trials for the "specifics". I will generally train at a different ground each day for about a week before the trial, concentrating on building speed for the recall and retreive type exercises early in the week, then shift direction doing light focus related exercises. I build speed by releasing part way through an exercise, to a food target placed in a direction inline, but past of where I want the speed to end. For general food drive building for Oscar, I will start to reward/release more often, while making him work for his full meal. (not normal routine.) Normal training is to have a lengthy time frame of work completed before reward/release. I find doing this improves his level of focus, and drive. On the last day before the trial, I fast him and feed other dog in front of him. I take extra yummy cooked steak with me to the trial, and give him a small sample of it during quick warm up just before I enter the ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 LP you are talking about my boy aren't you?! He is sooooooooo fast it is amazing for a dog of his size. Believe it or not his is considerably (3 to 4 m over 20m) quicker than my girl, yet in the trial ring he can get distracted, used to go really slowly and shuts down quite easily. For us it has come back to making sure he is having fun, even if that means running a totally random course when he feels like it, then heaps of rewards at the end of the run - I don't rewards incorrect behaviour like running under bars or launching off contacts, I do reward having fun on the course. I started with a dog that in his first trial ran under 3 bars, then went and sniffed the fence and ground and would not run to having a dog that now tows me to the start line. (Just that sometimes he won't come off his start line stay! ;) ) All the while we are working in our 'training coocoon' (to steal another DOLer's words) to proof his equipment skills and handling. Each time we get to a trial he is getting more and more excited and running better. I'm also working on toy drive - 3 months ago he was scared of his tuggy after something happened in our back yard when he was tugging (only he knows what ) Now he will go and grab it and shove it in my lap. Both these behaviours (towing me around and presenting me with toys) I have to REALLY discourage in my girl, but for CK they are really positive so I go with them. The key for CK is allowing him to run fast because he just loves it and making sure it is fun - being pulled out of weave poles 4 times is NOT fun for him, so I have to put up with being eliminated to make sure he wants to go again next time. It will take longer than with a dog I can correct and have to stay on top of, but the results as they come are actually proving a little more solid. Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Tony your post reminds me of a few more things I do with Lil. NEVER go back, NEVER stop and correct in a set. If you want speed and drive then don't do anything to extinguish it. If you've got a dog with drive to burn it may be different but with the less confident dogs, you want to encourage any lateral or physical distance from you and speed. Train obstacles separately. I can target Lil to food.. that will produce some working ahead. I dont' lead out and I work mostly in front of her.. that encourages her to keep up. I do use a lot of vocal encouragement too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I dont' lead out and I work mostly in front of her.. that encourages her to keep up. I do use a lot of vocal encouragement too. I can't lead out with CK and he is a lot quicker than me - I just have to prey there is a contact in the first few obstacles or the course becomes one of his design! One of the big things we are working on this week is going back to the basics of 'One Jump'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 (edited) Leopuppy, are you talking about your dog? or just talking in the generic sense? In the generic sense, I think most of the dogs I see who are stressed in the ring are picking up from the handler. I have been chatting to someone recently, I have seen her training videos & the dog flies, full of confidence & well trained. When they get into the ring, the dog has moments of brilliance, but generally ends up losing focus & sniffing. It is 100% related to the handlers vibes in a trial. I can literally see the dog saying "OMG, what is going on? why is she screeching at me & being so tentative, I don't know where to go." Having a dog that is not overly rewarded by food or toys is going to be an issue for most teams. How can you communicate what is right? At a recent seminar I went to, the presenter said something very simple. "This gets rewarded, this does not". I am lucky enough to have dogs who will do agility enthusiastically with no promise of external reward...but...in training, I want to reward everything I see that is correct. That is how I able able to get it repeated. I think if I had a dog who was not overly interested in rewards, I would spend my time changing that, so that I had a tool to use. Another simple but useful tip I got from another seminar was this "I don't push my dogs for speed. Speed comes with experience & trust." The way I interpret this is that speed will come when your handling is consistent, so that every time you do abc you are asking the dog for the same thing & it will be rewarded for that. Sometimes you see people who have the same signal & it actually means a couple of different thing. It seems clear in the handlers mind, but the dog is never really sure which it means. Another question I regularly ask people in training is "tell me in your dogs words, what he thinks his job is here". Often they get half way through a response & realise that the dog doesn't really know. Contacts are often a great example of this. Edited September 24, 2008 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 (edited) A few examples - you have a fast dog for agility, but when you get to a trial, it is always slower because of the stressors presented to it (close proximity of other dogs etc) A topic close to my heart as I have two of these - but I believe it is for different reasons and also that confidence/stress are two different issues, although related. Trialling kelpie I believe it is stress related as it does not happen at every trial - we have some runs with good speed and others ..... well we won't go there. It also presents that I can be in two different rings at the same trial and have good runs in one ring and 'shut down' in another so I believe it is a reaction to some environmental stress rather than trial stress in general. The frustrating thing is that I can't always work out what it is - one example, a trial with 2 first places in one ring and refusing to do a startline stay in another, and jumping up and following me when I tried to leave him every time - I had someone come up to me later and tell me they believed it was a dog in a tent next to the ring that was wearing a Vic. collar - every time it moved its head, he freaked and stood up. I try to walk him around the outside of all the rings we will be in before the trial, letting him check everything out, and then try to keep his focus as we are warming up to go in - you have some good suggestions LP - usually tricks, tugging until a couple of dogs before us (if he will, this is still a 'sometimes' at a trial) and then lots of small food rewards delivered quickly while the dog before is running. If we do have a run where I feel he is shutting down, I will not worry about the course and try to pick a straight line to run out of the ring , to try and get the speed back. At training I will stop in the middle of a course or sequence if I have good speed and reward this. Choosing a particular handling system and trying to stick to it has also helped. Kelpies really don't like inconsistency or ambiguity in any way so I try to have a startline routine that stays the same as well as consistent handling - and with some of the abominations of courses we get in Vic. this is not always easy. I will also scratch a run if I can't find a consistent way to handle the course within my system. Just to go OT for a moment, this dog had no toy drive and I have worked really hard at building this, but now when he really goes into drive over a toy I get leg humping as well - any thoughts from the drive experts on here - I know it's supposed to be a dominance issue but it only ever presents at agility when he is totally focussed on the toy - the best runs I have are usually preceded by leg humping so if you see someone going into the Masters ring with a kelpie attached to her leg - that will be me! The younger kelpie (not trialling yet largely due to this lack of speed in unfamiliar locations) I believe it is more of a confidence issue and hopefully will improve over time. (eg: put him on an unfamiliar dogwalk and he will crawl over it the first couple of times but by the 3rd or 4th repetition is flying over it) I am holding back on entering him, even though the way he runs at home he is well and truly ready) and taking him to trials and playing with him outside the ring. Have just started taking a jump with me and putting that up not too far from a ring, working on stays in a trial environment and all those other good suggestions that people had. When he won't tug with a toy - again this is inconsistent- we tug with a cheesestick as he is very food motivated. Means we can still interact as we do with a toy and he gets the reward he likes. Win-Win. When I do enter him for the first time, I intend to do my own 'not for competition' run (if they won't give it to us in Vic. I will create it!) where we will take the first 4 or 5 obstacles (or less if he appears stressed) and then leave the ring and party. Have already spoken to a couple of judges who are fine with me doing this - there are some I would not do it with - so will be picking and choosing my trials very carefully when he first comes out. Think it's also important to choose your trials with a dog that stresses/lacks confidence. There are some where noises are always a factor (Knox with the athletics gun, Croydon with the train, Sale with the weird echo off the velodrome in some rings) and some where overcrowding before you go in the ring is another factor (Southern comes to mind). These are usually trials that I don't enter, or at least won't be until his confidence grows. I think the other things in dealing with this issue are the hardest - patience, sometimes you just need to chip away at it bit by bit and acceptance (with the dog that only sometimes presents like this) that there are going to be some runs like this and I need to not dwell on them and move on. Edited September 24, 2008 by kelpiechick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 I think with Diesel he is definitely picking up on my body language - I know I act differently when we're at a big event (dog day out, trial) than I do at training. I get frustrated because he can be so good at training, and I struggle to get him to work at all at a busy place. He will not ever tug consistently, even at home. He is getting better with the squeaky toy that Kaos loves. He is generally very good with food, but even sometimes that will not work and he will shut down. I have found that simply going and clicking and treating for any attention has helped with focus. He is now 4 1/2 though, and I can't help but feel that we have given obedience a fair go (though not entered a trial) so may scrap that idea, maybe it just isn't for him. I am hoping that tracking, being a more independent sport where he can work it out himself, and only having to focus on the track instead of the many things in obedience may work. We are going to give it a go anyway. It may be that when things start to get complicated in tracking we run into the same problems. But for now, at the beginning, he is keen and happy when he knows we are doing tracking, and that is all I can ask for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westielover Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Just to go OT for a moment, this dog had no toy drive and I have worked really hard at building this, but now when he really goes into drive over a toy I get leg humping as well - any thoughts from the drive experts on here - I know it's supposed to be a dominance issue but it only ever presents at agility when he is totally focussed on the toy - the best runs I have are usually preceded by leg humping so if you see someone going into the Masters ring with a kelpie attached to her leg - that will be me! I recently read (I think it was Pat Miller's book 'Play with your Dog') that leg humping, in the context of your situation, is a response to a high state of excitement. My foster kelpie does it when I play tug/games with him - but it only happens when he gets to a certain level of excitement which is usually quite high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted September 24, 2008 Author Share Posted September 24, 2008 Reddii - sounds as though you are doing a wonderful job with KC and doing all the right things. A pet hate of mine are people that take their dogs back over and over to the same obstacle to re-do because the dog mucked up. Weaving is a big one (yes, I too am guilty of this!)... What we forget are the 11 other good weaves that the dog did! Take a note, and work on it.. usually it will be our body language that pulled us out (read a big GUILTY sign on my head!) Vickie - this is just a generic thread, but as always you can read and pick up things that are relavent to your own dogs. Thoughts started pouring into my head after reading CU and thus the start of the thread. One of my dogs, I was not pleased with his speed earlier in the year, so I decided to pull him out from competition for a few months and work / focus on a few things... He isn't going to be any top speed BC, but I am really proud of the improvements we have made as a team. I am now doing the same thing with Miss K. Building toy drive is really important to me, and I spend a lot of time with this in mind. I swear, the next dog I get, for the first 6-12 months, I am going to do nothing but drive building/ basic obedience coz I just find it is so important to have that drive... and you CAN build it up in most dogs Kelpie chick - sounds as though you are doing a wonderful job with your two!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Leopuppy - same with my next dog! Drive building and foundation work only as a pup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 - I have a nearly 6 month old pup residing in the house at present and what can she do. Er she tugs, sits and drops and is a mad keen retriever and obsessed about chasing her ball. Nothing else in the world matters apart from her ball and she will do ANYTHING possible to get me to throw it. Suffice to say second time around I wasn't going to have a dog who wouldn't play. So from the time she was a baby my new girl has been taking to agility trials, obedience trials, out and about and yep we just play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 My 6mo lurves tug with a passion and will chase and retrieve a ball about 6 times before he gets bored and gives up... Hand touches are one of his favorite exercises he also loves to sniff the ground (spaniel!) and chew sticks oh, and he loves sliding down the slide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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