Teaching The Retrieve?

[squeak]

I am hoping to trial one of our dogs next year - Stormy, who is a deerhound X. My problem is that she doesn't naturally retrieve.

So, how do you teach a dog who isn't a natural retriever how to retrieve. I've tried Shirley Chong's(sp?) step by step clicker training method, but have reached a sticking point which I don't know how to get past. Stormy will only hold the dumbell for a very, very limited time (1-2 seconds on a good day). If I try to shape her picking up the dumbell from the floor, she will pick it up about 10 cms and then literally "throw" the dumbell across the room.... or at my toes. She thinks that this is a great game, but I don't. I have tried to "help" her understand to hold the dumbell by gently holding her chin, but as soon as I try to remove my hand, again, she launches it across the room. I have held the dumbell as she picks it up, to try to work out what she is doing with her mouth - she seems to try to push the dumbell forward with her tongue as soon as she picks it up, but I could be wrong on this.

I am open to any and all suggestions as I am entirely out of ideas.

[PAX]

The joys of retrieving.

With the hold try really hard to click ONLY when she has it in her mouth, don't worry if she spits it as soon as you click. I know it's hard not to worry but you really have to make sure she understands that the click only happened when the DB was in her mouth. Gradually you click for longer and longer holds, at first that might be a millisecond more.

Sometimes you might even need to go back a bit if it's coming undone, only go as fast as your dog is learning.

Going slowly is the fastest way. Re read the notes lots of times and make sure you haven't missed a step.

Make sure the food you have is really, really worth her effort, even if that means Roast Pork. When she understands the game she will do it for anything but in the learing stage you need really good food to keep her motivated.

Don't push for a sit and hold for a while yet, some dogs get it quickly and some don't.

[squeak]

Thanks PAX. I have gone backwards soooo many times that I have lost count. Treats are the highest value ones which I use - either cheese (which she loves, but gets stuck in her throat) or frankfurts. I've started to use dried treats for a lot of her other "normal" stuff.

I guess part of me is getting fed up with a dumbell being dropped on my toes (I'll remember to wear shoes when I'm training inside, one day) and part of me fears that she will never "get it".

When I have been been working with her to hold the dumbell, I have been working with her in a sit, as this is the position that seems easiest for both of us - puts her head at my lap height when I'm sitting down. Otherwise, if I am trying to get her to pick up off the floor, I am not asking for a sit - I am happy that she picks it up.

Do you think that the fact that I have taught her to "give" previously (when I need to get something out of her mouth) has any bearing on her reluctance to retrieve?

Finally, I have been working with a wooden dumbell. She used to occasionally carry a ball (for very short distances) when playing. Is there any point in trying to teach her a retrieve with a ball first?????

[PAX]

It is really hard to not get hung up on making it formal but don't.

I don't think it matters what you train the retrieve on at first as long as it's the same article until they understand the exercise. I also don't think it matters what the dog has learnt as long as you don't rush and your dog knows what a click means.

This is what I did.

Get all the treats (the best you can have, raw chicken, cooked liver, whatever she goes crazy for) the clicker, DB a chair and get cosy next to your kitchen bench with all the things on the bench ready. If she loves cheese and stuff have something better, you want the best food so she wants to make the effort.

Have the db behind your back and the clicker in your hand. Show her the DB and as soon as she makes eye contact click and get the DB out of her sight and treat her, build from there. You should already have this part strong if you plan to progress and have followed the Keepers retrieve.

If you let her see the DB and you are not paying attention you could miss really good eye contact and attention on the DB so you must put it out of her sight when you're not ready. You want her to see the DB as the greatest thing in the world and always be rewarded for her attention/happy attitude to it.

By the time you are at putting it on the ground you should almost have to fight your dog (in the nicest way) to be able to get it to the ground as the dog wants to get it so bad to get that click.

Don't worry about a sit or anything else, all you are aiming for is the DB flying and having lift off, if she gets it off the ground just click while it's in her mouth and have a party. When she understands this, if you delay the click she will(should) go back to the DB and pick it up again, then you click and have a bigger party.

Always quit while your ahead.

The easiest way to stuff it up is by going for too much too soon, don't be greedy, make haste slowly.

The beauty of C/t'ing is you can't stuff anything only take longer.

Do you know how to play the two food game?

[WalandLibby]

Mary Ray teaches the dog to hold through the click which allows you to build duration pretty easily. The vid I saw of her talking about this was pretty old, so I'm not sure if she's developed it further, but she clicks while the dog holds (even if she knows that will be very brief), then when the (naive as yet) dog drops it, she just waits (I guess providing a Least Reinforcing Stimulus, although I don't think she's using that deliberately, I don't think there'd be any harm in helping the dog out by pointing at the dumbbell, cueing if you have a pick up cue as yet). When the dog picks it up she asks for it and then rewards.

I have a really sensitive dog and him dropping the dumbbell used to scare him, hadn't thought about it hurting a person. I'd say work with something that falls quiet and soft.

[Kavik]

I had this problem too Very frustrating but very funny when they throw it, looking so proud

I had to go back several steps for a short hold and extend time again. My issue at the moment is speed to go out and get the dumbell - quite slow, though it is improving.

[gsdog2]

Do you know how to play the two food game?

I've never heard of it , but I'd love to know ....... please!

[PAX]

The two food game is the same principle as the two hose game except any dog can play that likes food.

[squeak]

PAX - she is keen to get the dumbell when I put it on the floor - but only so she can throw it. I almost think that the throwing is "self-rewarding"? and is possibly better than any treats that I could offer. I have read about the two food game from the "gloves" thread, but not sure how you would use it with this??? I don't think I am making it "formal" - if I hold the dumbell, she will almost always immediately look at the dumbell followed closely by putting her mouth on the bit - so I guess at least this bit is solid (trying to find somethign positve here!). Part of my problem is that if I am trying to increase the time she holds (even by a nanosecond) and I miss c/t before she spits it out, she very rapidly loses interest.

Kavik - thanks for sharing. It is always nice to know that you're not alone And yes, they always look soooo proud of themselves!

Interesting thing happened this morning. I was putting Stormy out and she spotted a soft toy which I had put in a box with some other things to go to Vinnie's. She did a very nice pick up and then started carrying it around the house! Soooo hard not to chase her and go crook on her - I ended up laughing and praising her instead. I moved away from her to try to get her to bring me the toy. Me thinks that perhaps I need to start teaching her the retrieve on stuffed toys instead!!!

[PAX]

Perhaps you need to have a reward she wants more than throwing the DB.

[Lablover]

Do you think that the fact that I have taught her to "give" previously (when I need to get something out of her mouth) has any bearing on her reluctance to retrieve?

Finally, I have been working with a wooden dumbell. She used to occasionally carry a ball (for very short distances) when playing. Is there any point in trying to teach her a retrieve with a ball first?????

Sorry, I am confused by your posts. Can I ask, you are trying to teach hold? Retrieve to me means bringing the item back.

I would teach hold first myself. Using a favoured item. You seem to be becoming frustrated, and excuse me if I am wrong, ubt I would stop using the dumbell for a while.

If something ain't working ----change is my motto!!!

Edited September 16, 2008 by Lablover

[squeak]

Lablover - I have been trying to teach her to hold the dumbell as the first step in the retrieve. Shirley Chong's method then has you getting the dog picking up the dumbell from the floor, which then progresses to the dog bringing the dumbell to you - the retrieve.

I have been working on trying to get her to hold for a while, but with very limited success as explained above. My mention of the ball was my rambling trying to work out if I *should* change something. And yes, I am frustrated, as I don't know what I should do as my next step - I guess I am looking to change something, but don't know what to change. I am open to suggestions.

Hoping that has made things clearer, and not added to the confusion.

[Lablover]

Lablover - I have been trying to teach her to hold the dumbell as the first step in the retrieve. Shirley Chong's method then has you getting the dog picking up the dumbell from the floor, which then progresses to the dog bringing the dumbell to you - the retrieve.

I have been working on trying to get her to hold for a while, but with very limited success as explained above. My mention of the ball was my rambling trying to work out if I *should* change something. And yes, I am frustrated, as I don't know what I should do as my next step - I guess I am looking to change something, but don't know what to change. I am open to suggestions.

Hoping that has made things clearer, and not added to the confusion.

Thanks. I am unfamiliar with the Chong method.

Every time I see a clicker video or such, trying to teach hold and/or retrieve, it seems to me they are causing mental stress to the dog. Teaching hold simply seems easier to me. Gently holding their lower jaw closed and praising.

Nevertheless GOOD LUCK.

[squeak]

Every time I see a clicker video or such, trying to teach hold and/or retrieve, it seems to me they are causing mental stress to the dog. Teaching hold simply seems easier to me. Gently holding their lower jaw closed and praising.

I have previously tried teaching her this way, but with basically the same result - her throwing the dumbell across the room, even if I remove my hands for a nanosecond.

[Lablover]

Every time I see a clicker video or such, trying to teach hold and/or retrieve, it seems to me they are causing mental stress to the dog. Teaching hold simply seems easier to me. Gently holding their lower jaw closed and praising.

I have previously tried teaching her this way, but with basically the same result - her throwing the dumbell across the room, even if I remove my hands for a nanosecond.

How frustrating. What does she do, when you keep gently holding her jaw closed?

Any chance someone could Youtube the both of you?

[dogdude]

I am a bit confused. Why are you attempting to pick the dumbell up if there is no hold??????

Go back to the start. Teach hold, and do not try anything else till you get one.

Work for the dogs dinner for this. It is a simple, and non complicated exercise, as long as your timing is right. Using her dinner will put more value on getting it right. It will also make you think twice about your timing.

I use the stay command while teaching this, as they already understand that there is a no movement element involved, and will more often than not hold it calmly. Use the same methods as you used in teaching stay (non reward word helps, and calmly repeat exercise showing no emotion at all. )Talk to the dog in a neutral tone, and mark and release when she's made the right choice. Gently help her as you have been doing if necessary.

I think a non reward marker is very usefull for this exercise, if used properly, without emotion.

The dog then has to be taught to reach a couple of centimetres for it from the hand. Then a little further from your body, and so forth.

Skipping any of the steps will have you hitting brick walls.

I prefer to used the forced method (yes, with ear pinch) for teaching the dog the understanding of the mechanics of the exercise......then after a real understanding is evident, (normally no more than 7-14 days from start to finish), I then change back to using positive motivation only.

Teaching it that way saves me months of frustration, but its not for the novice to do without supervision.

[dogdude]

Hi Kavik: To speed up the send and return,... try releasing your dog to a food target placed behind you, as soon as the dog turns to come back to you. You can also start off by turning, and throwing an easily seen food target behind you, as soon as he turns.

Dont worry about what he does with the dumbell after release (as long as he knows the exercise.)

Doing this every now and again has given Oscar at least three extra gears.

[MonElite]

I prefer to used the forced method (yes, with ear pinch) for teaching the dog the understanding of the mechanics of the exercise......then after a real understanding is evident, (normally no more than 7-14 days from start to finish), I then change back to using positive motivation only.

Teaching it that way saves me months of frustration, but its not for the novice to do without supervision.

Just wondering why do you say "months" of frustration??

I taught my dog the positive clicker method and it took me about a week from start to finish, that is with the stay during the throw to the come back with the sit at the front.

I might have done 3-4 little sessions a day on weekends and 2 a day during the week.

I did hit a brick wall as she wasnt holding for long enough, yes got frustrated for about a day or so as I could see no improvement, but decided to hold her muzzle to help her understand that untill I click she is not to open her mouth.

[squeak]

Just wondering why do you say "months" of frustration??

I taught my dog the positive clicker method and it took me about a week from start to finish, that is with the stay during the throw to the come back with the sit at the front.

I might have done 3-4 little sessions a day on weekends and 2 a day during the week.

I did hit a brick wall as she wasnt holding for long enough, yes got frustrated for about a day or so as I could see no improvement, but decided to hold her muzzle to help her understand that untill I click she is not to open her mouth.

I say months of frustration because...

(a) I am possibly a crap trainer, and/or

(b) Dog is a slow learner (took her 6 months to learn to sit) (our other dog I taught to sit reliably within one week), and/or

© dog is not a "natural" retriever, and/or

(d) your dog is an incredibly fast learner.

(e) I have not consistently trained this daily for months - I will take short breaks and try to work out where I might be going wrong and come back to it - mainly so I don't take my frustrations out on the dog.

Monelite - this dog was adopted from the RSPCA when she was 12 months old. She had had absolutely no training up until this point. It literally took her the first six months to "learn how to learn". It takes me months to teach her things that I have seen other people's dogs pick up in one session - and I honestly do not think that I am that bad a trainer. I know that our other dog (retriever x collie) learns things much faster when I teach him. Dogs are just individuals and are different - so for this reason, whilst I admit that I am not a brilliant trainer, I don't think that I am that bad. She is not a dog who naturally wants to please or to learn. She is a sighthound - not really known for their retrieving ability.

However, it raises an interesting question - how long did it take people to teach their dog to retrieve and what breed of dog is it?

Edited September 16, 2008 by squeak

[squeak]

dogdude - you raise an interesting point. I think perhaps that I have progressed too quickly from the hold, but can I ask, how do you know when your hold is "solid" enough to progress to the next step. Is it when the dog will hold, calmly, until you ask for the item back?

I am also very interested in learning about the forced retrieve/ear pinch (probably not for this dog - not sure if she has the right nature for it?), but it seems to have become a hush-hush topic and few people will talk about it. Even if I never use it, I would still like to understand the training technique.