Introducing Dogs / Aggression?

[euripides]

I'd like some advice on socializing my dog, please. I'll be returning to puppy classes soon, so I'll be able to get some eyes-on expert advice then, but in the meantime, if you've any suggestions, I'd really appreciate it.

My JRT-cross (male, desexed) has met other dogs when walking, and usually 'stands up to them' but doesn't growl or anything. He usually seems keen to meet them. He's had a brief play with a stray in our yard, and they seemed okay, not comfortable but not nasty. Then today I tried to introduce him to a friend's dog (a non-desexed staffy female) and he was extremely agressive and we had to separate them quickly to avoid a fight. Her dog seemed to be being quite submissive, tail wagging. He wasn't wagging his tail but his body posture SEEMED the same as it has been in the past when meeting others.

I was rather taken aback by his aggression. Luckily no harm came of it this time and I'll be FAR more careful in the future. However I'm hoping to get another dog so I'm very worried about how this will go. How I should introduce the new dog in the first place, and whether I should get one at all, and if I do, whether I should go for an adult (as I'd planned) or a puppy. I'm not sure that I'd trust him with a very little puppy. Someone had suggested that puppies don't create a power struggle, but I think the additional attention that pups need might create resentment.

I wonder if part of the agression stems from the fact that we've just moved house and he has been in a boarding kennel, and with all the upheaval, maybe he's a bit territorial at the moment? With his humans he's a very affectionate and obedient dog. He does have strong terrier instincts though and I have to keep an eye on the cat.

any thoughts on socialization with other dogs would be most appreciated.

Helen

[poodlefan]

My immediate thoughts are that this dog should NOT be socialised with other dogs unless it's under the supervision of a competent, qualified behaviorist. If you are thinking of adding another pup to the family, the best way to go is to seek professional advice about this dog FIRST.

Other dog owners wouldn't appeciate you using their dogs as guinea pigs anyway, no matter how careful you're planning to be.

ETA: Internet diagnosis of aggression is fraught with danger but the body language you are describing (very upright) suggests dominance may be at work here.

Edited September 8, 2008 by poodlefan

[euripides]

My immediate thoughts are that this dog should NOT be socialised with other dogs unless it's under the supervision of a competent, qualified behaviorist. If you are thinking of adding another pup to the family, the best way to go is to seek professional advice about this dog FIRST.

Other dog owners wouldn't appeciate you using their dogs as guinea pigs anyway, no matter how careful you're planning to be.

Sure, sure, I'll be more careful as in keeping them away from each other. I wouldn't want him to harm another dog and I wouldn't want the vet bills either. (I don't mean that to sound mercenary... it's reality though, I can't afford extra bills ATM. I'd be utterly devestated if he hurt another dog or got hurt himself. I'll make sure it doesn't have the opportunity to happen. I'm kicking myself for being so stupid thismorning, I should know better)

I don't know if we have a dog behaviorist here - gosh I hope they don't charge as much as human psychologists. They people at the kennel club are fantastic though and seem to know their stuff. I know they've been away to the city on courses so they probably have some sort of qualifications.

I'm so upset by this. I'd so hoped to get another dog. I certainly won't do anything until we've seen someone about it - maybe he needs to be an only dog

Edited September 8, 2008 by euripides

[Kavik]

I agree with poodlefan, get a behaviourist to look at your dog and assess it with other dogs, they can read the body language well and tell you what is going on.

One of my dogs does not get on with other dogs (Zoe). But I have managed to introduce other dogs into the household. Puppies work best in my case as she is not as worried about them, but they are carefully supervised together for quite a while. I would suggest getting help first though before thinking about another dog, that way you know what your dog is like and whether another dog is a good idea and how your dog is likely to react.

[dee lee]

Poodlefan is right. Get your dog seen to by a behaviouralist sooner rather than later.

Its a bugger having a dog aggressive dog (I know, I have one *sigh*) you have to be hyper-vigilant especially since it may not be ALL dogs that trigger it and it can be hard to predict at times. Working hard on your dog's obedience and focus on you will be very important too.

Until you do get someone around you should keep your dog on leash.

Good luck.

[dee lee]

Just read Kavik's post- and want to add that its usual for dogs to tolerate puppies more but my dog is consistently aggressive towards all puppies so dont rely on that.

Behaviouralists are expensive but so are vets bills from bitten dogs. Its too much of a risk- and you need to accept your dog in all probability WILL bite another if you dont get on top of this.

Edited September 8, 2008 by ✽deelee

[euripides]

Thanks Deelee,

yes I ALWAYS keep him on a leash when he's outside our gate, and I've carefully dogproofed the fence. I haven't been to an offleash area with him as we have a massive block and I don't see the point in risking a dogfight, primarily because I've always distrusted other people's dogs, didnt' realize he was going to be so aggro.

People seem to automatically bring their dogs up to 'say hello' ... it's crazy isn't it. Same as kids running up to pat dogs. My kids know to always ask owners if they may pat a dog. (Even then I'm not always keen on the idea, since there's so many stupid owners around, and even smart ones can have a brain bypass on occasion, like I did!)

[euripides]

I'd heard that puppies tend to follow around and be subordinate, but I've also heard a horror story with a larger breed dog and puppies... plus he does give the cat a bit of a hard time. I'm working on rewarding good behavior around the cat... though it's harder to catch him being good than to catch him dragging him by the tail!

[Kavik]

Oh I didn't mean it to sound like I let Zoe play with strange puppies

I can introduce puppies into the household that are to live here (and have twice done it with adult dogs and Zoe for a short period of time, a few months, that was much more difficult) but that is when I can watch both and both are mine and it is different to letting them meet strange dogs on the street.

[dee lee]

People seem to automatically bring their dogs up to 'say hello' ... it's crazy isn't it. Same as kids running up to pat dogs. My kids know to always ask owners if they may pat a dog. (Even then I'm not always keen on the idea, since there's so many stupid owners around, and even smart ones can have a brain bypass on occasion, like I did!)

I know, it drives me nuts!! I especially hate the accompanying "my dog is friendly" comment made with a smile- which disappears very quickly when I say "my dog isnt!" I concentrate on trying to make my dog non reactive these days and the idiots who want their dog to sniff every other dogs bum make this very hard. They'd be the first ones to complain if my dog bit theirs.

It is a good idea to avoid dog parks- thats where my dog developed her problems- they are filled with too many people who have no idea about dog behaviour and have little control over their dogs.

Pups can also grow up to challenge the alpha dog which will lead to fights. Do a search on prior posts about multiple dog households, I recall some helpful tips such as having age differences and opposite sexes or something like that. Personally Ive only had one dog at a time so I have no real advice on that.

I think its great that you are sensible enough to be aware that your dog is potentially aggressive and to ask for help. Good on you!

[persephone]

primarily because I've always distrusted other people's dogs,

and------------- your dog has picked up on this- so he may be 'getting in first'

best get a behaviourist in- to assess and explain the communication sent&received between you,your dog, and other dogs/humans.

[euripides]

primarily because I've always distrusted other people's dogs,

and------------- your dog has picked up on this- so he may be 'getting in first'

best get a behaviourist in- to assess and explain the communication sent&received between you,your dog, and other dogs/humans.

I don't think that's entirely the case - I was quite relaxed about him meeting the staffy and was quite surpised by his behavior. Distrust was perhaps the wrong choice of word. The fact is that all dogs are capable of biting or aggression in some situations and I wouldn't expect otherwise: they're dogs. That's what they do. I'm aware that I don't understand dog 'language' as well as I might, and not knowing a particular dog's history (and knowing how many idiots hit and otherwise abuse their dogs, creating fear-based aggression) I think treating a strange dog with respect is wise. However I usually have no problem with them. I try to use appropriate body language such as not staring them in the face and turning my body to one side.

That said, I see your point, and I think that 'picked up' aggression is probably going to be MORE of a problem now that I've realized that the little rotter is likely to go on the offensive.

Now the dust is starting to settle from our house-move, and I'll give the kennel club a ring once I can dig out the newsletter. I'll definitely be getting expert help on this issue. If it turns out that we need to be a one-dog household, that's okay.

[Lablover]

I wonder if part of the agression stems from the fact that we've just moved house and he has been in a boarding kennel, and with all the upheaval, maybe he's a bit territorial at the moment? With his humans he's a very affectionate and obedient dog. He does have strong terrier instincts though and I have to keep an eye on the cat.

Helen

How old is he? When did he come home from the boarding kennel? Was he in a run with another dog, or next to other dogs? Do you train him?

[euripides]

I wonder if part of the agression stems from the fact that we've just moved house and he has been in a boarding kennel, and with all the upheaval, maybe he's a bit territorial at the moment? With his humans he's a very affectionate and obedient dog. He does have strong terrier instincts though and I have to keep an eye on the cat.

Helen

How old is he? When did he come home from the boarding kennel? Was he in a run with another dog, or next to other dogs? Do you train him?

He's two. He'd only been back from the kennel for a couple of days, but we are also moving house, so there's alot of upheaval. He was next to other dogs. He hates the kennel and is always 'wired' for a week after, though was better this time. We try to take him with us whenever we can, I hate kennels. He never eats enough there either.

We do train him. Somewhat inconsistently I'll admit - that's something I'm working on improving, and I want to go back to the training classes for that reason. He's generally well behaved at home but I need to improve his heel, stay and recall. He's a very smart boy and works things out very quickly so it only needs a bit of effort on my part for him to do well. He's keen too - as soon as there's a treat in my hand he's trying to guess what command I'm going to give!

I've put the idea on hold for now, until we've been to some training classes and I've had a chance to chat with the instructors.

[puggy_puggy]

Has he ever played with other dogs?

I would think it was quite sad if a dog got to the age of two years and had never played with other dogs.

Maybe you over reacted to the staffy situation. What exaclty occured? Growling? Standing over eachother? Actual biting? Could they have been play growling or fighting? Was this on your own property? If so was the other dog on a lead? Many people suggest that if youa re bringing a new dog onto your property that you actually meet that dog on nutrel ground out the front of or down the street with your dog and then go onto your property. The noises that some dogs make whilst playing can be mistaken by people as being vicious. Many dogs might have a growl at eachother when they first meet but one will back off and things will be fine.

[euripides]

Has he ever played with other dogs?

I would think it was quite sad if a dog got to the age of two years and had never played with other dogs.

Maybe you over reacted to the staffy situation. What exaclty occured? Growling? Standing over eachother? Actual biting? Could they have been play growling or fighting? Was this on your own property? If so was the other dog on a lead? Many people suggest that if youa re bringing a new dog onto your property that you actually meet that dog on nutrel ground out the front of or down the street with your dog and then go onto your property. The noises that some dogs make whilst playing can be mistaken by people as being vicious. Many dogs might have a growl at eachother when they first meet but one will back off and things will be fine.

Not really, only very occasionally. We just haven't had the opportunity. The neighbors had large hunting dogs. A friend brought their small dogs around once but they growled at each other through the screen door and we decided not to risk it. At puppy classes we had to keep the dogs apart.

To me he was unmistakably being aggressive to the staffy, lunging forward and growling with hackles up. It was out the front of our old house. A stray Coolie visited us a couple of weeks ago and they played together quite well, he was being dominant but not aggressive in the same way. The youngster wasn't all that interested in him so maybe that made a difference, I don't know. In retrospect I was lucky they didn't fight, I don't know how I would have managed if they had. (Yep, total brain bypass on that occasion).

Maybe I'm wrong but I think I'll take the advice regarding getting expert help. I really don't want to have a nasty dogfight on my hands.

He does play with the cat (sort of - sometimes they get along quite well and investigate bugs in the garden together) and gets lots of human company. I agree it's sad he hasn't had a chance to play with other dogs, but he isn't neglected and gets lots of love and play.

I'm doing my best to be a good and responsible owner. Not always getting it right, I admit.

[bilby]

I'm doing my best to be a good and responsible owner. Not always getting it right, I admit.

You are doing your best, & I really congratulate you for recognising the problem when it arose & for asking for help.

I doubt any dog owner has always got it right .

I thought I was reasonably savvy about dog behaviour etc until my son returned home with a - then 10-months-old - JRT.

I'd only had large dogs before, & (with hindsight) dogs that were "soft" /trainable/biddable.

Axle is so very different & was a considerable challenge for the 1st year or so.

I was very grateful for the assistance of Gem, my elderly GSD in setting very firm boundaries on how far his very dominant play towards my (55kg) Mastiff X was allowed to go.

He has changed enormously in the last 18 months, despite Gem's death.

Maybe it's age (he's now 3), but I think the introduction of a Labrador pup 13 months ago has a lot to do with it. They absolutely exhaust each other in play & though he is so much more aggressive than she is, her size & amiability gives her the edge.

Having said that, I wouldn't trust him with another dominant dog. My b-i-l thinks that if they bought their male Airedale up to visit, the dogs would "just sort it out" & then be best buddies. My sister & I disagree (strongly).

I wish that I'd had Axle here earlier in his life & that I'd known that it seems he's staying long term. He is such a smart dog.

Like you, we have 5 acres & because he has the other 2 dogs, I haven't done anything about socialising.

You know what ? As I've been typing this, & trying to get my thoughts in order, I've just realised that he is only 3, & I should also get Axle assessed by a professional, & see if I can minimise my fear / his unsociability.

My main point was to be that I can't imagine having a JRT / JRT X in a single dog household. I still can't, & my focus would be getting the expert advice to enable you to get him a companion.

I think I'll go off & find out more about working Axles's issues out.

Good luck.