Puppy Vaccinations

[Bubbly]

For a great overview of canine (and feline) immunity please go through the presentation here:

http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

Here are some things to consider in your situation.

Once a puppy has seroconverted they have been vaccinated. Once vaccinated they cannot be vaccinated anymore. In other words once the immune system has "learned about" the disease through one modified live vaccine, you cannot boost immunity.

So if you really wanted to know if your pup seroconverted you could titer him now (look around for decent prices). That would tell you if either of his previous vaccines worked. Then you could wait a year before deciding how you want to approach adult vaccinations.

79% of puppies seroconvert if vaccinated at 9 weeks

95% of puppies seroconvert if vaccinated at 12 weeks

and reportedly 99% of puppies seroconvert if vaccinated at 16 weeks (this study was performed on Rottys, who seem to be harder to vaccinate, and these studies were done with older vaccines so the newer higher titer ones probably would seroconvert more puppies at younger ages.)

The newer Neopar vaccines are labeled for an early finish, as young as 10 weeks. Ask you vet what brand they use.

C4 vaccinates for the parainfluenza component of canine cough. There is controversy if the strains in the vaccine are actually the strains that are out in the population. Parainfluenza results in a 9 day self limiting cough - that rarely has complications.

C5 vaccines have parainfluenza and the bordatella component of canine cough. The injectable boratella vaccine does not give good mucousal immunity - which is what a puppy needs to avoid a boradtella infection. AND it only lasts for about 6 months for the average dog. Think about that long and hard, it DOES NOT give the immunity your pup needs to avoid the disease and it only lasts 6 months - not the year before they say you should get another. Bordatella can be harder to treat than parainfluenza - but the injectable vaccine basically does not protect your pup.

If you really want to protect him from boratella the intranasal is a better option for mucousal immunity.

My pup got a C4 at 8 weeks and is getting a C3 today at just under 12 weeks. The vet uses neopar vaccines. He won't be getting anything else until maybe 1 yr when I haven't decided if I'll give one more C3. The only reason I'm contemplating it is that the canine immune system matures at about 6 months and I'm debating making sure he's got one C3 after that. If anything I want to do requires "proof" I'll get a titer done. If they won't accept that then I'll find something else to do

Good luck! there's a lot of info out there and I can be very overwhelming. That link I posted is a really really good presentation. Please go through it if you still feel confused. It even has references you could bring to your vet if wanted.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Bubbly

[anthony mazzeri]

Once a puppy has seroconverted they have been vaccinated. Once vaccinated they cannot be vaccinated anymore. In other words once the immune system has "learned about" the disease through one modified live vaccine, you cannot boost immunity.

That all makes perfect sense, it's like us getting shots as kids and once you have the antibodies that's it for life, so... why have the medical professional vets been recommending annual vaccinations then?

[Cavandra]

My dogs go lots of places, including shows, and they get a C3 at 8 or 9 weeks, another C3 a month later, they get a C4 a year or so later, and they dont get anything else.

In my experience the dogs I see with KC are C5 vaccinated dogs...........At one time, the neighbours C5 annually vaccinated Staffie had the worst KC, it drove us all round the bend with its coughing & hacking, this went on for about 3 weeks or so..........While my non annually vaccinated dogs that never get C5 all caught it one by one from this dog, all except my oldest dog who never got it at all, all the others had a few light coughs each day, that most people wouldnt have known to be KC, and it lasted 2-3 days...they all had a spoonful of Mannuka honey a few times a day, and were fed Ester C tablets............I am quite happy that my dogs get this flu & build their immune system in this way naturally.......Annual vaccine suppresse the immune system. Admittedly I also feed a Natural raw diet, which also plays a huge part in holistic health for them

Edited August 29, 2008 by Cavandra

[Cavandra]

Once a puppy has seroconverted they have been vaccinated. Once vaccinated they cannot be vaccinated anymore. In other words once the immune system has "learned about" the disease through one modified live vaccine, you cannot boost immunity.

That all makes perfect sense, it's like us getting shots as kids and once you have the antibodies that's it for life, so... why have the medical professional vets been recommending annual vaccinations then?

Because the Drug companies say so.....a multi billion $$$$ industry full of corruption.......and vets are happy as they make a fortune too, and then they also get to make a fortune treating all the damage that Vaccinosis can cause.In fairness, most Vets have never done any study themselves, they just follow the protocol as it is the easiest thing to do.....

We dont get annual shots of measles & Hepatitis, so why would our dogs need Distemper & Hepatitis, same thing!

[Bubbly]

Once a puppy has seroconverted they have been vaccinated. Once vaccinated they cannot be vaccinated anymore. In other words once the immune system has "learned about" the disease through one modified live vaccine, you cannot boost immunity.

That all makes perfect sense, it's like us getting shots as kids and once you have the antibodies that's it for life, so... why have the medical professional vets been recommending annual vaccinations then?

Same reason drug companies are now recommend adults who've had chicken pox get the vaccine in middle age.... MONEY

And Cavandra is right (I seem to agree with her a lot ) Vets are following protocol. The immunology courses taught at vet schools vary a lot - because of who teaches the classes. So if someone researching new vaccines is the professor you get one kind of class and if someone researching immunological memory is the professor you get an entirely different outlook! For example the head immunologist at University of Wisconsin in the states (Dr. Ron Schultz) has been pushing to end yearly vaccinations for over a decade (maybe over two decades) because his research is in immunological memory - not in vaccine development.

Vets and MDs often rely on drug company reps to educate them for lot of reasons so if a vet hasn't spent the time on his/her own educating themselves they are leaning on what the drug companies say. There are ways to change that, but thats a whole nother topic!

[slievemish]

Many Breeders and Vets have their own way of doing their vaccination programs. I am a Breeder and I vaccinate my puppies at 6 weeks with a live C3, then at 12 weeks they get their C5, they are at their new homes by then, and a booster is given at 16 weeks of C5. As for isolation periods after their first vaccination I ask for the puppies not to go to places where alot of dogs go, and ask their owners to keep them inside their backyards. At 12 weeks most obedience schools start their puppy classes after they have had their 2nd vaccination. Like I said each Breeder and Vet has their own program. I think it also depends on where you live, e.g down the coast they have ticks, I live in a tick free area, so I don't need to use Advantix or similar products. I do not use flea treatments as my dogs do not get fleas, When I go to dog shows I give them a natural flea rinse when bath them and I have never had any flea problems. At the off leash park in Bowral, there is a large bucket that gets filled up with water and every dog drinks from it, some people change the water but mostly all the dogs dig in and drink it. I supply my dogs with their own water to be on the safe side. If I were you I would ask your vet as he can answer your question better as he knows what dogs come in to the surgey, whether e.g. Kennel Cough may be running rampant or their might be cases of parvo the have had to deal with. Personally I would rather be safe than sorry, especially seeing you work in a Shelter. Hope I have been of some help.

[Janba]

Puppies vaccinated at 6 weeks have zero immunity.....This is why the breeder has done it at 8 weeks, as puppies 8 weeks or older will be immune! 3 days after a shot is enough isolation before going in public......

The more shots you give the less immunity your dog will have

Cavandra I assume this was a typo you ment "the more shots the more immunity."

If a dog already has immunity the vaccinating does nothing and can in fact lower immunity. It does not boost the immunity unless the antibody titres are low.

ATE

Edited August 29, 2008 by Janba

[Cavandra]

Many Breeders and Vets have their own way of doing their vaccination programs. I am a Breeder and I vaccinate my puppies at 6 weeks with a live C3, then at 12 weeks they get their C5, they are at their new homes by then, and a booster is given at 16 weeks of C5. As for isolation periods after their first vaccination I ask for the puppies not to go to places where alot of dogs go, and ask their owners to keep them inside their backyards. At 12 weeks most obedience schools start their puppy classes after they have had their 2nd vaccination. Like I said each Breeder and Vet has their own program. I think it also depends on where you live, e.g down the coast they have ticks, I live in a tick free area, so I don't need to use Advantix or similar products. I do not use flea treatments as my dogs do not get fleas, When I go to dog shows I give them a natural flea rinse when bath them and I have never had any flea problems. At the off leash park in Bowral, there is a large bucket that gets filled up with water and every dog drinks from it, some people change the water but mostly all the dogs dig in and drink it. I supply my dogs with their own water to be on the safe side. If I were you I would ask your vet as he can answer your question better as he knows what dogs come in to the surgey, whether e.g. Kennel Cough may be running rampant or their might be cases of parvo the have had to deal with. Personally I would rather be safe than sorry, especially seeing you work in a Shelter. Hope I have been of some help.

Sorry to disagree, but there is no wrong & right way or "own way", there is "ONE" way...no puppy should ever be vaccinated before 8 weeks of age end of story...the ideal age is 10 weeks of age........Vaccinating puppies at 6 weeks is WRONG..............Please update your knowledge & educate your Vet in this regard, it is your duty as a breeder to be up to date and almost an expert in all things doggy JMO..........

[slievemish]

Many Breeders and Vets have their own way of doing their vaccination programs. I am a Breeder and I vaccinate my puppies at 6 weeks with a live C3, then at 12 weeks they get their C5, they are at their new homes by then, and a booster is given at 16 weeks of C5. As for isolation periods after their first vaccination I ask for the puppies not to go to places where alot of dogs go, and ask their owners to keep them inside their backyards. At 12 weeks most obedience schools start their puppy classes after they have had their 2nd vaccination. Like I said each Breeder and Vet has their own program. I think it also depends on where you live, e.g down the coast they have ticks, I live in a tick free area, so I don't need to use Advantix or similar products. I do not use flea treatments as my dogs do not get fleas, When I go to dog shows I give them a natural flea rinse when bath them and I have never had any flea problems. At the off leash park in Bowral, there is a large bucket that gets filled up with water and every dog drinks from it, some people change the water but mostly all the dogs dig in and drink it. I supply my dogs with their own water to be on the safe side. If I were you I would ask your vet as he can answer your question better as he knows what dogs come in to the surgey, whether e.g. Kennel Cough may be running rampant or their might be cases of parvo the have had to deal with. Personally I would rather be safe than sorry, especially seeing you work in a Shelter. Hope I have been of some help.

Sorry to disagree, but there is no wrong & right way or "own way", there is "ONE" way...no puppy should ever be vaccinated before 8 weeks of age end of story...the ideal age is 10 weeks of age........Vaccinating puppies at 6 weeks is WRONG..............Please update your knowledge & educate your Vet in this regard, it is your duty as a breeder to be up to date and almost an expert in all things doggy JMO..........

Like I said everyone has their own program. With all the dogs our family and friends have had and still have the first vaccination has always been done at 6 weeks of age. I will look into this further but as my vet is an AQUIS Vet, he is up to date on all the latest in veterinary medicine, as he is also specialising in AI and frozen semen and always expanding his knowledge.

[anthony mazzeri]

My new pup was vaccinated at 6 weeks then i have been told needs another 2 shots?

However when i get her 2nd shot done ive been told to make it a c5 then she wont need another- is this correct?

I'd stick to C3 and give one more shot at 12 weeks. You only need KC shot if you're going into kennels.

So as she will be a show dog a C3 is sufficient? From what i just read om some other threads it would be better to get a C5 or C6- as Kennel Cough like most things is going around.

And I've seen many show dogs get it anyway...

Better to build a strong immune system so that if they do catch it, they get over it quickly.

I show mine and he's not vacc with KC and never will.

The link Bubbly posted says one half of the Kennel Cough (bordatella) shot only lasts for 6 months anyway, not the full annual. But the other component of the C5 (parainfluenza) is the actual KC virus whereas the bordatella bacteria is a secondary infection making KC much more serious. So C4 with just the parainfluenza half is the way to go if not doing annually? Do all vets do C4? On my puppy card it only has either C3 or C5 listed.

[Nekhbet]

I've dealt with parvo before and how everyone's 'less is more' protocol meant diddly squat. By half the opinions on here my rottweiler was more then vaccinated. He barely went into high risk areas as well.

$2000 and over 2 weeks of constant care from me. He was on bag after bag of drip, pumped full of medications

No 6 month old rottweiler should look like this. Poor little man I nursed him in my lap with so many tears, he was so weak and the other idiot nurse I worked with left him to lay in his own urine so I went to work on my days off as well.

If people dont want to vaccinate ... fine. But at least show the other side of what happens and the risk people take with following below prescribed protocols.

I dont want to scare the OP I'm giving them a chance to decide.

[Cavandra]

Like I said everyone has their own program. With all the dogs our family and friends have had and still have the first vaccination has always been done at 6 weeks of age. I will look into this further but as my vet is an AQUIS Vet, he is up to date on all the latest in veterinary medicine, as he is also specialising in AI and frozen semen and always expanding his knowledge.

We have an AQIS approved Vet here & his clients are constantly complaining to the AVA about his negligence, so it doesnt really mean much to me LOL

Your vet is following the outdated protocol, which has been proven to be wrong.......he is following the Drug company recomendations, and not following the scientific evidence. ....

he can run his own personal study himself if he wants to, he can vaccinate pups at 6 weeks then Titer test them & see that they have ZERO immunity....he can then take other litters & vaccinate them at 8-10 weeks & Titer test them & see that most if not all WILL have immunity........

The reason so many puppies get Parvo virus is due to the fact they have been done at 6 weeks & have no immunity

[Crisovar]

I've dealt with parvo before and how everyone's 'less is more' protocol meant diddly squat. By half the opinions on here my rottweiler was more then vaccinated. He barely went into high risk areas as well.

$2000 and over 2 weeks of constant care from me. He was on bag after bag of drip, pumped full of medications

No 6 month old rottweiler should look like this. Poor little man I nursed him in my lap with so many tears, he was so weak and the other idiot nurse I worked with left him to lay in his own urine so I went to work on my days off as well.

If people dont want to vaccinate ... fine. But at least show the other side of what happens and the risk people take with following below prescribed protocols.

I dont want to scare the OP I'm giving them a chance to decide.

Dr Jean Dodds has information available on vaccine protocol for Rotties, I'm sure she recomends using a modified live virus for them after 8 weeks? I'll see if I can find where I put it.

[Bubbly]

I've dealt with parvo before and how everyone's 'less is more' protocol meant diddly squat. By half the opinions on here my rottweiler was more then vaccinated. He barely went into high risk areas as well.

$2000 and over 2 weeks of constant care from me. He was on bag after bag of drip, pumped full of medications

<snip>

If people dont want to vaccinate ... fine. But at least show the other side of what happens and the risk people take with following below prescribed protocols.

I dont want to scare the OP I'm giving them a chance to decide.

I'm so sorry Nekhbet that your beautiful pup was stricken with parvo! Unfortunately, vaccines are never 100% not matter how much or how little you give them. In your case it was probably his breed that was the problem - not your vaccine schedule.

Unfortunately, some pups are what are called "non responders" and that means that a vaccine won't ever seroconvert them. Black and tans like Dobes and Rotties are notorious for this! and it's why many vets will do a single parvo only at 18 or 20 weeks. To try and make sure they've given the pups as much chance as possible to seroconvert. If I ever have a black and tan pup know I"ll be titer testing to have the most knowledge about my pup possible.

So, a disclaimer should really be put on this thread that if you have a black and tan there are other things to consider - like titering after every vaccine.

[stormie]

Like I said everyone has their own program. With all the dogs our family and friends have had and still have the first vaccination has always been done at 6 weeks of age. I will look into this further but as my vet is an AQUIS Vet, he is up to date on all the latest in veterinary medicine, as he is also specialising in AI and frozen semen and always expanding his knowledge.

We have an AQIS approved Vet here & his clients are constantly complaining to the AVA about his negligence, so it doesnt really mean much to me LOL

Your vet is following the outdated protocol, which has been proven to be wrong.......he is following the Drug company recomendations, and not following the scientific evidence. ....

he can run his own personal study himself if he wants to, he can vaccinate pups at 6 weeks then Titer test them & see that they have ZERO immunity....he can then take other litters & vaccinate them at 8-10 weeks & Titer test them & see that most if not all WILL have immunity........

The reason so many puppies get Parvo virus is due to the fact they have been done at 6 weeks & have no immunity

I agree with you that puppies get no benefit from a 6week vacc, but assuming they get a 6week shot, then they'll also get a 10, and then a 14week, which according to Jean, is adequate (one shot before 12wks and one shot after, 4 weeks apart), but just renders the 6wk shot pointless. So to say that so many puppies get parvo BECAUSE of the 6week shot, IMO, is not correct. The reason that puppies get parvo is because they are allowed to come into contact with the virus before they have adequate immunity.

I'm all for the new protocol, but I believe titre testing is important if you are not going to vaccinate regularly. And I think each dog needs to be treated as an individual. Australia has such a low incidence of canine diseases because of our current or 'outdated' protocol. It's going to be really interesting to see how things go over the years. I'll start referring to the new protocol as 'scientific evidence' when I know 100% sure that it keeps dogs safe. In my area, it's all relatively new (as in the last couple of years), so I don't think you can be sure that it's proven for many years to come.

As for the vets just trying to make money, well that's a whole other topic (which personally, really irritates me). So often on dol I read threads about people complaining about incompetent vets because they gave the wrong advice/diagnosis. How long will it be before someone is complaining because their vet told them not to vaccinate but then their dog gets parvo? And no doubt it will all be the vets fault again... Not all vets are perfect, but they've all done the hard yards at uni and most of them are trying to do the best for the owners, but at the same time, following guidelines to cover their arses from clients who want to sue them for everything.

Edited August 30, 2008 by stormie

[morgan]

My dogs go lots of places, including shows, and they get a C3 at 8 or 9 weeks, another C3 a month later, they get a C4 a year or so later, and they dont get anything else.

In my experience the dogs I see with KC are C5 vaccinated dogs...........At one time, the neighbours C5 annually vaccinated Staffie had the worst KC, it drove us all round the bend with its coughing & hacking, this went on for about 3 weeks or so..........While my non annually vaccinated dogs that never get C5 all caught it one by one from this dog, all except my oldest dog who never got it at all, all the others had a few light coughs each day, that most people wouldnt have known to be KC, and it lasted 2-3 days...they all had a spoonful of Mannuka honey a few times a day, and were fed Ester C tablets............I am quite happy that my dogs get this flu & build their immune system in this way naturally.......Annual vaccine suppresse the immune system. Admittedly I also feed a Natural raw diet, which also plays a huge part in holistic health for them

Very true - mine were all recently exposed to KC after a bitch came out of boarding kennels and developed it (she had been there for 2 weeks whilst in season). She promptly gave it to her brother, who had a very bad cough for a few days, but he had lost a lot of weight and been very stressed over her season, so was definitely very vulnerable. All the other dogs were exposed to it and only two others caught it - ten didn't. Not one of these dogs had ever had a C5 or had it before and some hadn't even been off the property in 6 years to be exposed to it. One of the dogs that caught it also has an autoimmune problem so I expected her to get it. They all responded very quickly to colloidal silver.

Bubbly - agree with the disclaimer on the rottie - this breed is notorious for not responding to vaccines.

[Danois]

"There is little evidence to support therapeutic claims made for colloidal silver products; the risk to consumers of silver toxicity outweighs the value of trying an unsubstantiated treatment, and bacterial resistance to silver can occur; and efforts should be made to curb the illegal availability of colloidal silver products, which is a significant public health issue."

This is the FDA's recommendation on colloidal silver!

[morgan]

Seeing as the FDA says that Aspartame is perfectly safe, I don't take a lot of notice of what it may or may not say

I have been using it for years without the slightest bit of argyria (which is reversible in the early stages anyway) It saved the life of one of my horses when antibiotics failed to help, much to the astonishment of my vets, who had believed that she would die. Infact, it has saved the life of a few animals here, so forgive me for ignoring the FDA's pronouncements on the matter and continuing with what usually works for me.

PS - of course the FDA is going to try to ban something that people can make cheaply at home and thereby reduce the profits of the corporate world. Oh, and aspartame is good for something, it is an excellent ant killer

PPS - even if my mare would have become permanently blue as a result of CS, it would be better than dead...

[Cavandra]

LOL Morgan

Some of the rubbish is astounding isnt it.........The drug industry is so corrupt, they ban things like B17 & Hemp as they cant make any money out of them, and are afraid of losing heaps in chemo drugs etc when these natural substances cure things like cancer!

I use Colloidal silver for lots of things & always have :D

Edited August 30, 2008 by Cavandra

[Cavandra]

I agree with you that puppies get no benefit from a 6week vacc, but assuming they get a 6week shot, then they'll also get a 10, and then a 14week, which according to Jean, is adequate (one shot before 12wks and one shot after, 4 weeks apart), but just renders the 6wk shot pointless. So to say that so many puppies get parvo BECAUSE of the 6week shot, IMO, is not correct. The reason that puppies get parvo is because they are allowed to come into contact with the virus before they have adequate immunity.

Thats good, as that is not what I said !

Pups that have had a shot at 6 weeks is the same as a pup that has had NO shot at all........when the 6 week old goes for its 12 week one, that is in fact its FIRST one (as the 6 wk one did nothing), yet is out in public etc thinking it is immune, and it is not.......This is why so many 6 week vaccinated pups get parvo.........I hope that is clearer for you :D