Help! Need Advice To Help Settle A Rescue Dog Into

[westielover]

A great home came along for a rescue dog who's been in care for about 8 weeks. His name is Logan and he is a Border Collie cross perhaps Labrador and maybe a little bit of staffy too. He is about 8 months old - very smart - has learnt manners while in foster care and was in care with 2 other male dogs and 1 female - all working breeds ranginging from 1 year to 2 years old. There were no prolems with Logan and his canine foster buddies. Logan does have the type of persoanlity where he will react when challenged - he's not submissive.

Logan has been rehomed with a 18 month old female border collie who is dog social and used to dogs coming to her home. She does seem to have a soft nature about her.

The 2 dogs met on neutral territory and all was fine - then they went home together and all was fine for about 24 hours. Below is the new owners details of events from Monday thru to today:

Logan certainly seems to be consistently asserting himself as Number 1. He is very pushy with Molly, Jumping on her constantly, taking toys from her, pushing her around the room etc. Sometimes this is fine, Molly seems to accept it and they play etc and Molly always seems to back down.

On Monday afternoon there was a scuffle. I was outside for a while playing with the dogs and walked inside leaving the door open for them to come in. Logan pushed his way through and I turned around to see what the noise was and they were both jammed trying to get through the door (inside is obviously a VERY exciting place!!). Anyway, they both ran up to me and sat about 3 feet apart (after I told them to) and I put both hands out to give them a pat and Logan stood up and again tried to push Molly out of the way. She backed off quickly yet again. Then she turned full circle to try to come back (by this stage I was just standing upright watching them) and then they got funny. Hackles, staring, snarls etc. They both showed their teeth and I said "thats enough!" just as Logan lunged at Molly. She took off upstairs and hid under the bed. I put Logan outside immediately to separate them and went up to find Molly. I tried to call her but she wouldn't come out. She was up there for over 2 hours. Logan came back in after 20 or so minutes.

This has been a regular occurrence ever since. As soon as I have just myself and the two of them together, Logan pushes inbetween myself and Molly (this behaviour goes unrewarded - I stop patting both of them/ignore them etc) and then they start with the snarling/barking/hackles before I separate them. I have also tried turning my back and walking away when they do it and telling them 'uh-uh' 'NO'. Every time it ends in Molly running away.

As I said to you yesterday Molly was right in the back of her Kennel when I got home yesterday and she wouldn't come and greet me which broke my heart!! (I am a bit of a sook when it comes to things like that!). I let Logan go inside thinking his presence might be the issue and she stuck her head out to lick my hand but it took ages for her to come out (nearly and hour). And she was very sooky/timid all night. Today it was the same, she wouldn't even come out to play with the ball in the backyard.

So they have just had their dinner outside and I went downstairs mid-way through this email to check on them as there was a lot of noise in the backyard and Molly was back in her kennel. I called them both inside as it is getting chilly out there and thought I could keep a good eye on them. Logan came flying in and Molly again stayed curled up in her kennel. After reading your email, not to 'molly coddle' Molly, I have decided to leave her outside and spend some more time with Logan on my own.

He is a great little dog, but Molly's sudden sooky behaviour and almost fear that I am seeing in her is really bothering me. I don't want to condone Logan's pushy behaviour, and I won't allow their scuffles to get any worse. I will keep an eye on things, but if there is no change in the next few days,I might have to make the call to unfortunately send Logan back. I really wish I had every single day available to work with both of them and their relationship, but I do have to leave them alone at times in the day. I think Logan's pushiness is part of his boistrous, playful nature and with correct manners training it will calm down. But this is Molly's house too and I really don't want her hiding from both Logan and myself and I don't like seeing her get 'aggressive' either.

So for the next few days I will keep going with:

- not rewarding Molly's sooks with pats etc

- Continuing with the 'uh-uh' when it starts in my presence

- working on Logan's manners with more 'sit' and 'stays' (which he is VERY good at when in the right frame of mind!)

- keeping a good eye on the situation

I have loaned the new owner Patricia McConnells book 'Feeling Outnumbered' which she has already read and is trying to apply some of the techniques in the book.

This scuffles only occur in the presence of the wife. It doesn't happen around the husband.

They really want to try and work things out but I guess they don't really want to start spending a lot of money on behavourists (assumption on my part) while Logan is on trial. Molly is their first dog and she is their priority - Logan was supposed to be a friend for Molly. The last thing I want is for Molly to be adversly affected by having Logan in the house.

Can anyone please offer some other advice which may assist with settling the situation down? Or is it a case of a relationship which is perhaps just not meant to be?

[Cosmolo]

One thing that would concern me is the long recovery time from Molly- the fact that she is hiding in her kennel for hours at a time is not a promising sign.

I would set up lots of interactions with both dogs on leads so that Logan can be abruptly stopped from pushing Molly around AND so that Molly learns that her owners will not allow Logan to bully her and will 'protect her' as such. Logan should only be rewarded when he is not being pushy.

Its not about the owners supporting or trying to choose their own hierarchy- but about leadership showing both dogs what the rules are when the owner/ leader is present. Is there any way they can set up a camera to see how the dogs are interacting when they are not present?

I assume they are in NSW? Otherwise i would offer to go and have a look!

Edited August 27, 2008 by Cosmolo

[westielover]

One thing that would concern me is the long recovery time from Molly- the fact that she is hiding in her kennel for hours at a time is not a promising sign.

Concerns me too :D

I would set up lots of interactions with both dogs on leads so that Logan can be abruptly stopped from pushing Molly around AND so that Molly learns that her owners will not allow Logan to bully her and will 'protect her' as such. Logan should only be rewarded when he is not being pushy.

Its not about the owners supporting or trying to choose their own hierarchy- but about leadership showing both dogs what the rules are when the owner/ leader is present. Is there any way they can set up a camera to see how the dogs are interacting when they are not present?

Thanks Cosmolo - will pass that on.

They ahve neighbours at home all the time who could monitor things for them.

I assume they are in NSW? Otherwise i would offer to go and have a look!

Gosh I wish you were in Sydney - that would be such a kind and helpful thing to do.

[Cosmolo]

If they want to call us, i'm happy to give them some general pointers over the phone?

[Nekhbet]

Logan certainly seems to be consistently asserting himself as Number 1. He is very pushy with Molly, Jumping on her constantly, taking toys from her, pushing her around the room etc. Sometimes this is fine, Molly seems to accept it and they play etc and Molly always seems to back down.

first problem was owner watched the behavior occur and let the dog continue. Being in a new environment the dog is going to want to set a new routine, find his place in the pack. New dog is now #1

Logan pushes inbetween myself and Molly (this behaviour goes unrewarded - I stop patting both of them/ignore them etc) and then they start with the snarling/barking/hackles before I separate them. I have also tried turning my back and walking away when they do it and telling them 'uh-uh' 'NO'. Every time it ends in Molly running away.

Molly is obviously not good at coping with challenges, she's a soft dog. The owner sounds very soft and it sounds like punishment was being ignored for Molly. ALso I think Logan being 'unrewarded' may not be completely true, he's pushing for a reason. Logan also has to learn what his new owner uses for 'no you are doing wrong' and 'yep you're doing great'! It may not be clear to the dog what the owners wishes are and hence he just keep pushing until he gets what he wants.

Unfortunately what it seems is

1) owner is not acting like a leader and putting a puppy in its place - puppies dont challenge existing pack structure or push older dogs around

2) Molly is left to control the situation and owner turns their back on her and leaves her to fed for herself. She obviously is not a fighter and cannot cope with a leadership position in a pack

3) the owner does not want to see Molly get aggressive yet they have to understand - if the do not correct Logans behavior Molly feels its her responsibility to.

They sound like the type of owners who need a chilled out, submissive young dog who will cope with their style of dog ownership and Mollys personality. Logan could work with Molly, if it was me I would be keeping Logan in a crate while I was at work and for the first couple of weeks only let them interact when Logan was on lead with a corrective collar and suppress some of that crazyness. He's just a full on puppy that needs to be told to cut the BS by his new owner.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Nekhbet

[DeltaCharlie]

I am still a little surprised by the whole thing. Logan fitted into my pack immediately and I had no issues with him whatsoever, despite having a foster that is very similar to Molly in temperament. The only thing I can think of is that I set the ground rules right from the start, new dogs are treated exactly how they will always be treated. I think this new family has tried to give him extra attention to settle him in and he is milking it for all it is worth.

While living with me he wasn't pushy in any way, I guess you could say he was top of my pack but not really through anything he actually did. My dogs just couldn't really care less and are happy for fosters to sit above them if thats the way it works, they still get their 'mum time' with me at training every night. He wasn't overly pushy at my house, although I do have memories of pushing him away a few times. Usually it was because he insisted on playing bitey-face with my other foster right on top of me while I was on the computer He is a very playful dog who always wanted another dog to play with. Delta was a little funny with him the first few days as he was too much for her but he was pretty respectful of that and left her alone until she came to him. Certainly never got snarky between him and any of my dogs. Perhaps he just knew I wouldn't tolerate it? Pack leader issue coming through again, I make sure I am boss and that everyone knows it.

Molly is a soft dog but she is a pretty well adjusted girl. On the submissive side but certainly didn't strike me as being fearful.

I'm thinking they need to get themselves a crate, whenever Logan is too pushy he can be locked away to give Molly a break. I would be walking them separately so that Molly still gets her one on one time, both while the walk is happening and while Logan is out on his walk. The dog park is right behind their back fence from memory, I would be taking them separately so that they are still having time to themselves. Molly really doesn't seem too happy with the new situation so every effort needs to be made to keep things as constant for her as possible.

Not sure how long they are away from home during the day but I would be considering crating Logan while they were gone. He used to spend the night in a crate here, sometimes up to 12 or more hours if I slept in. No way would I consider that long during the day but if they are only gone 5-6 hours I can't see it bothering him at all, especially if it is only for a week or so. He absolutely loves marrow bones and will chew on one for hours on end so keeping him amused isn't too difficult. He actually managed to get one small enough that I had to take it away in case he swalled the remainder (it started off as half a bone).