Too Harsh A Punishment

[Luke W]

Similarly for the 'running away when you say come" issue.

What is the dogs motivation for coming? Sometimes owners ruin a dogs recall inadvertantly....For example, what usually happens when the dog DOES come? For some dogs this means the lead goes on and the dog goes home or the dog gets banished outside or the dog gets punished.

This technique is designed to excite the dog into coming to you. As opposed to chasing the dog when it doesn't come which teaches it that its fun to run away from you. Every trainer I have spoken to advocates this.

I think you are assuming Ruthless is a novice and a bit clueless- which she most definitely is not.

I understand the handler running away when recalling the dog - but that's not what the OP said:

"This is the dog that looks over her shoulder and laughs at me when she's running away and I'm telling her to "come""

The DOG is running away when the handler says come. The question I posed was "why".

Edited August 28, 2008 by Luke W

[Quickasyoucan]

Sometimes the reason for peeing in the house is cause she wouldn't go out in the rain to pee, but it's generally a protest thing.

Are you sure you haven't taught her not to wee in front of you? Plenty of people do by buggering up their aversives, and then they wonder why their dog is "sneaky". I agree with Poodlefan that it's tether time, and it's also stubborn time. No point saying "she won't wee" outside, you have to outstubborn the dog. After meals, waking and playing dog goes out until it wees and then you throw a liver party. If that means you sit in a garden chair for an hour, that's what it means. Just don't eyeball her, no-one likes to go in front of someone else staring at them.

So, your OH may in fact be the soft one - waiting outside isn't fun, but if you don't have the patience for it you pay in wet beds.

Its very interesting that you say outstubborn as that is I guess what I have done teaching Jake to wee when I want him to in the evenings.

I did it with a couple of other dogs who I had staying with me who I was not sure were totally housetrained, one a 8 month old puppy one my 2 year old foster. I find if you just stand outside near them give them a wee command and stay there until they do it then effusive praise, they pick it up amazingly quickly.

As has been said, you do have to be persistent, sometimes it is bl**dy cold out therem or raining, but there is a good payoff!!

I also make Jake have a drink of water before we go out in summer too, he knows he has to and sometimes has a token couple of licks if I ask him (and looks at me as if to say there I have done it- happy), but it does seem to work if you just refuse to budge until they have done whatever you need from them.

It's pretty good when you see the light of understanding go on in their eyes too!

[dee lee]

Ok, Luke W, I get that.

I'm just trying to point out to you though that Ruthless has a lot of experience with dogs (she has 3 adult staffies and a husky), I think perhaps you are being a little hard on her.

Not all dogs are easily trained- I know I have a difficult one too, and I all too well understand the tendency of certain dogs to seem to give you the finger, so to speak.

It is obviously a pack structure issue with the weeing, but could be many things with the recall.

Edited August 28, 2008 by ✽deelee

[ruthless]

The DOG is running away when the handler says come. The question I posed was "why".

1. Cause I've done no recall under distraction training with her

2. Cause it's heaps more fun jumping all over people in the park with her muddy paws/chasing birds/ playing with other dogs etc. than it is coming to me and behaving herself

3. Cause I've been completely inconsistent with any training I've done with her to date

4. Cause she's a staffy that loves to be naughty

5. Whatever other reasons you care to mention

Do you think I don't know why she doesn't come when I call her I made the comment about her looking over her shoulder and laughing as she runs off to give people an idea of what her personality is like.

[Luke W]

Ok, Luke W, I get that.

I'm just trying to point out to you though that Ruthless has a lot of experience with dogs (she has 3 adult staffies and a husky), I think perhaps you are being a little hard on her.

Not all dogs are easily trained- I know I have a difficult one too, and I all too well understand the tendency of certain dogs to seem to give you the finger, so to speak.

It is obviously a pack structure issue with the weeing, but could be many things with the recall.

No problem

[Quickasyoucan]

The DOG is running away when the handler says come. The question I posed was "why".

1. Cause I've done no recall under distraction training with her

2. Cause it's heaps more fun jumping all over people in the park with her muddy paws/chasing birds/ playing with other dogs etc. than it is coming to me and behaving herself

3. Cause I've been completely inconsistent with any training I've done with her to date

4. Cause she's a staffy that loves to be naughty

5. Whatever other reasons you care to mention

Do you think I don't know why she doesn't come when I call her I made the comment about her looking over her shoulder and laughing as she runs off to give people an idea of what her personality is like.

She's still cute though!

Have to say my recall is not that good if there are interesting distractions. I thought it was good until we stayed the Drive training weekend in the bush in Kurrajong and then he basically just ignored me when I called him cos there were interesting smells.

And don't get me started on the skateboard thing... but we are seeing Steve in Oct so fingers xd.

[Luke W]

The DOG is running away when the handler says come. The question I posed was "why".

1. Cause I've done no recall under distraction training with her

2. Cause it's heaps more fun jumping all over people in the park with her muddy paws/chasing birds/ playing with other dogs etc. than it is coming to me and behaving herself

3. Cause I've been completely inconsistent with any training I've done with her to date

4. Cause she's a staffy that loves to be naughty

5. Whatever other reasons you care to mention

Do you think I don't know why she doesn't come when I call her I made the comment about her looking over her shoulder and laughing as she runs off to give people an idea of what her personality is like.

OK - I'll pull my head in.

[The Spotted Devil]

The DOG is running away when the handler says come. The question I posed was "why".

1. Cause I've done no recall under distraction training with her

2. Cause it's heaps more fun jumping all over people in the park with her muddy paws/chasing birds/ playing with other dogs etc. than it is coming to me and behaving herself

3. Cause I've been completely inconsistent with any training I've done with her to date

4. Cause she's a staffy that loves to be naughty

5. Whatever other reasons you care to mention :p

I think you've answered your own question ;) Consistency across the board may well solve your 'wee' problem. If it's any consolation, my Dally has been a tough nut to crack in terms of recall but with some hard work he is now super-enthusiastic and responsive - for me anyway......however he completely ignores my OH who is much harder to train

Edited because I'm a perfectionist

Edited August 28, 2008 by The Spotted Devil

[Wobbly]

When you only have 1 dog, it's easy to intensively follow all behaviourist instructions to the letter and spend time practising training, recalls etc everyday. But when you have 4 dogs and a full time job as well...

Staffy joyfully bounding away, grinning wickedly over her shoulder could be an invitation to play???

"Chase me, chase me, pleeeease chase me!!!"

If you're a soft touch your dog knows it - I was a sucker, putty in Jarrahs paws One thing that worked well in increasing respect for us in conjunction with NILIF was the variations on the TOT. The TOT as written here on DOL is the basic "for starters" package. When you saw Steve K9Force he would've told you how to up the ante on the TOT I think? I found that worked really effectively, really fast. Jarrah had the basic TOT down pat - the sit/stay/look was rote habit, a predinner ritual she was doing on automatic pilot - kept her supremely polite and & self controlled in the presence of food, but didn't engage her brain anymore since she know the drill so well. If you up the ante (and keep upping the ante, then lowering it again, then upping it, make her pay attention ;)) she has to really focus on your commands to get her dinner. There's the TOT for recall too - you'd want to have Steve go through it again to make sure you get it right from inception, maybe get a run through of it at the aggression workshop?

Post content disclaimer: I'm really novice at dog training - I'm just going on advice about Jarrah specific stuff, so may not be appropriate for Angel?

Edited August 28, 2008 by Wobbly

[Rebanne]

The fact that she did not settle before OH put her in her crate tells you something is not right with her.

I suggested he put her in her crate cause I knew she was looking for trouble. IMO she didn't need to go to the toilet, she was just being a brat cause she didn't get her way.

I do give her lots of praise when she pees outside. This has been going on for over 2 years now. Clearly we're doing something wrong, but hopefully some consistency with NILIF will help matters.

why is it impossible for her to have been wanting the toilet in this instance?

[iltby]

Your problem is lack of consistancy. NILIF if not just for this week or when you feel like putting in the effort - the point is that is the rules of the house.

nothing in life comes free. Write down the rules, stick them to the fridge and make sure everyone sticks to them.

If she doesn want to pee - then she stays outside until she does.

If she sneaks away - shut the door, get a child barrier whatever

This is the dog that looks over her shoulder and laughs at me when she's running away and I'm telling her to "come"

why do you give her opportunities for YOU to fail? You condition her not to listen?

Sounds like any punishment you do is 1) not correct for the dog 2) very mistimed.

We've started NILIF (again embarrass.gif). She was on the dog bed in the lounge and woke up. She came to me and put her head on my knee waiting to be invited up. I ignored her for a while and after a few minutes told her to get back into bed. She did, but got up again a few minutes later and started wandering around. OH got up and let her out the back. She didn't wee. When she came back in and she wouldn't settle so he put her in her crate [which is in another room, but not far from where we were sitting]. He didn't close the door though and she got out and when Ivan came into us a few minutes later I asked if Angel had gotten into his bed, cause he usually wouldn't get up otherwise! A couple of minutes later she came back in and when I put her on the bed with the others she stayed there. I went to bed shortly afterwards and left OH to put the dogs to bed.

OH has the shits cause he gave her the opportunity to pee and she didn't.

I reckon she pee'd in Ivan's bed cause she either had the shits about not being allowed on the sofa or cause she was put in her crate before bedtime.

I have the shits that OH didn't shut the door on her crate like I told him to laugh.gif

She doesn't have a weak bladder, it's definitely a behavioural thing. They're protest wees wink.gif

teach the dog that she has to wee before bed time and remove water after last wees. Keep the crate doors locked all the time and no dog can enter anothers crate. Again - no opportunity. She wee's because she's letting you know she's the boss around there and if you think you're going to be boss your wrong. If you cannot be consistant then do not expect the dogs to take you seriously. If you say something you give them one chance to comply or there is an immediate consequence to not respecting the leader.

You've been given a lot of great advice but I think this post is the most useful in the thread. It completely outlines what you need to do and it's simple I practice NILIF as best I can with my dogs but their recall isn't brilliant and it's good to be reminded that I should work on it - and that it's not impossible to improve.

Good luck with it!

[MissMolly]

Sometimes the reason for peeing in the house is cause she wouldn't go out in the rain to pee, but it's generally a protest thing.

Are you sure you haven't taught her not to wee in front of you? Plenty of people do by buggering up their aversives, and then they wonder why their dog is "sneaky". I agree with Poodlefan that it's tether time, and it's also stubborn time. No point saying "she won't wee" outside, you have to outstubborn the dog. After meals, waking and playing dog goes out until it wees and then you throw a liver party. If that means you sit in a garden chair for an hour, that's what it means. Just don't eyeball her, no-one likes to go in front of someone else staring at them.

So, your OH may in fact be the soft one - waiting outside isn't fun, but if you don't have the patience for it you pay in wet beds.

This is how i taught my girls to the toliet before bed time, i can remember hubby, calling out after about 30minutes, (sometimes longer), are you still awake out there, and other comments.. But it works and now before bed all three go outside i say toilet and they do..whoo hoo, told hubby i could do it..

[GotAnyBlacker]

Sometimes the reason for peeing in the house is cause she wouldn't go out in the rain to pee, but it's generally a protest thing.

Are you sure you haven't taught her not to wee in front of you? Plenty of people do by buggering up their aversives, and then they wonder why their dog is "sneaky". I agree with Poodlefan that it's tether time, and it's also stubborn time. No point saying "she won't wee" outside, you have to outstubborn the dog. After meals, waking and playing dog goes out until it wees and then you throw a liver party. If that means you sit in a garden chair for an hour, that's what it means. Just don't eyeball her, no-one likes to go in front of someone else staring at them.

So, your OH may in fact be the soft one - waiting outside isn't fun, but if you don't have the patience for it you pay in wet beds.

This is how i taught my girls to the toliet before bed time, i can remember hubby, calling out after about 30minutes, (sometimes longer), are you still awake out there, and other comments.. But it works and now before bed all three go outside i say toilet and they do..whoo hoo, told hubby i could do it..

All my dogs do that too. Even my new foster pup, I've just taught to do this in a few days or so

[husky princess]

Do you have a special word for toilet - eliminating?

[The Spotted Devil]

Do you have a special word for toilet - eliminating?

I use "quick, quick!" - it's easy to say and less embarrassing to say in public than "wee wees" :D

[husky princess]

Do you have a special word for toilet - eliminating?

I use "quick, quick!" - it's easy to say and less embarrassing to say in public than "wee wees" :D

Mine is 'toilly' and 'go toilly' like toilet but baby talk like and she goes like flash. And then I say the praise word and clap and do a cheer.

So who wins for most embarrassing? :D

Edited August 30, 2008 by husky princess