Professional Advice On Raw/barf Diets. Who To Contact?

[Snuffle]

Hey everyone,

I've searched the health section but i cant really find the answers to the questions im wanting so thought i'd start another thread. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm looking for a dog 'dietician'/nutritionist or someone who specialises in formulating raw/BARF diets. Can anyone suggest names or websites where i might be able to get into contact with one? My dog has been on a raw/BARF diet for nearly two years. I've read recently that these diets can lack in certain vitamins/minerals and aren't 'balanced' and 'complete' like commercial dog food. Im a bit worried that she isn't getting all that she needs from her diet. I give her one tablespoon of Missing Link each week but somehow i just don't feel it's enough. I've never fed offal and would like to try but i don't know which ones to choose (as i've been led to believe too much of certain organs can be detrimental and cause the dog to 'over-dose' because these organs are usually high in one or two vitamins or nutrients etc. Is this true?). I've also read recently that dogs cannot fully digest vegetable matter and find it hard to process vegetable fibre.

Also, i am vegetarian and am aware of the treatment of farm/factory animals and knowing that the meat that i buy for my dog comes from such places upsets me a bit. Is there a pet meat supplier in QLD that only uses organic, free range animal meat or does all pet meat come from the leftovers of farmed/factory bred animals that are kept and bred inhumanely?

Thanks heaps in advance

Snuffle

Edited August 26, 2008 by Snuffle

[Clyde]

Steve will know your answers ;)

If you call out to them in your topic header I'm sure they'll pop in.

[puggy_puggy]

What are you currently feeding your dog? ie weekly menu plan.

Putting vegtables and fruit through a juicer or blender combats the theory that dogs can not break down cellulose walls themselves. By putting the fruit & veg through the processor we are doing it for them.

This is my version of BARF and my feeding plan for my two pugs.

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BARF FEEDING ROUTINE

MONDAY

Chicken Necks

Slops

TUESDAY

Fish

Slops

WEDNESDAY

Chicken Necks

Yoghurt

Slops

THURSDAY

Kangaroo

Slops

FRIDAY

Chicken Necks

Offal

Slops

SATURDAY

Lamb Bones

Slops

SUNDAY

Beef or Lamb or Kangaroo

Slops

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BARF SLOPS INGREDIENTS & METHOD

Things I always include:

- container of alfala spouts

- bunch of spinach (roots cut off)

- 1 to 2 green capsicums (stalk cut off & seeds out)

- 1 to 2 red caspsicums (stalk cut off & seeds removed)

- bag of carrots

- bunch of celary

- 4 zuccinis

- 3 to 4 oranges (peeled)

- 1 pumpkin (seeds removed)

- 2 to 4 apples (pips taken out)

- 2 to 4 bannanas (peeled)

- 8 to 10 eggs (whole including shell)

- flaxseed oil (approx 250mL)

- kelp (approx 100g)

What else you can put in:

- bunch of silverbeet

- turnip

- squash

- sweet potato

- 2 to 4 pears

- half to 1 pinapple

- brussel sprouts

- brocoli

- cauliflower

- bag of beans

- Apple Cider Vinegar

- Vitamin C

Chop up then process up in blender/food processor so that things turn to slops. Put each blender batch into a big bucket. Usually leave the eggs & flaxseed oil for things that don't blend very well like the pumpkin and carrots. Ingredients should fill up a bucket. Mix bucket with big ladel till all mixed through then put into take away containers & freeze untill needed.

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BARF MENU EXPLAINATION -

*Veggie Slops – 2 to 3 tablespoons each

*Meat – work out approx 2% to 3% of your dogs body weight and then work out approx 70% of that amount and this will give you the amount to feed (preferably diced/chunks/stir fry strips but can be sometimes minced)

*Chicken necks – 3 to 4 per dog depending on the size of the necks. I cut up the chicken necks into bite sized pieces about the size of half your index finger.

*Yoghurt (once a week) – 2 to 3 tablespoons each. Natural yoghurt and full fat.

*Offal (once a week) – lambs kidney, sheep’s kidney, tongue, brain etc. The equivalent of one or two lamb’s kidney’s for each dog cut up into small pieces.

*Fish (once a week) – sardine can divided between the two dogs, tuna can divided between the two dogs or if they are lucky a piece of fresh fish each.

*Bones (twice a week) - (vary between Lamb (ribs/lamb flaps, backbones) Beef & Kangaroo Tail)

Some dogs can not stomach kangaroo as it is very rich. So see how they go with it and if they are unable to eat it then substitute it for another meat.

Kangaroo I get from a pet produce store. Chicken necks from either a chicken shop or the supermarket. Offal from the butcher. Bones from the butcher.

I will buy the meat, chicken necks, yoghurt and offal in large quantities and divide it up into separate meal portions and freeze. The night before that ingredient is to be eaten I will take the portion out of the freezer to defrost. Chicken necks, meat and offal I freeze in the snap lock freezer bags and the yoghurt in little tubs.

Veggie slops I make up in big batches and freeze in Chinese takeaway food containers.

[Snuffle]

I realized i do give her offal! She gets lamb heart once a fortnight.

Each feed of veg and pasta is about 50g or a bit more. I usually boil the veg for a little bit so it's still firm but not too crunchy. I'm wondering now if that's the reason she eats a lot of grass which is passed in her faeces- she's having trouble digesting the veggies? I'll see how she goes after i start to blend it.

Tia's fortnightly menu:

WEEK 1

beef pieces

lamb bones (ribs/flaps) & veg

chicken wings & veg

beef mince & pasta & 1tbs of vit/min Mix

lamb hearts

chicken necks & veg

chicken/lamb mince & pasta & 1 raw egg

WEEK 2

roo pieces

lamb bones (ribs/flaps) & veg

chicken wings & veg

beef mince & pasta & 1 tbs vit/min Mix

chicken frames

chicken necks & veg

chicken/lamb mince & pasta & 1 raw egg

She gets a marrow bone once a week that lasts her the week, an ice block with a small bone/blood/veg/pasta/water & left overs in it once a week and, and Kramar dried treats every other morning in a Kong, treat ball or scattered around.

I think i might replace once feed of the chicken/lamb mince with some kidney or liver(which is best?) and either replace a beef mince with fish or go half and half. I've often thought about fish but was unsure of how often to give it as i'm guessing in the wild they wouldn't come across it that often.

I have a question. What is the prey model diet? I did a search on here and about a thousand threads popped up, most of which are in non-diet realated sections with millions of pages (which i am too lazy to search through so could someone please just tell me ) Thanks

[laffi]

I realized i do give her offal! She gets lamb heart once a fortnight.

Each feed of veg and pasta is about 50g or a bit more. I usually boil the veg for a little bit so it's still firm but not too crunchy. I'm wondering now if that's the reason she eats a lot of grass which is passed in her faeces- she's having trouble digesting the veggies? I'll see how she goes after i start to blend it.

I have a question. What is the prey model diet? I did a search on here and about a thousand threads popped up, most of which are in non-diet realated sections with millions of pages (which i am too lazy to search through so could someone please just tell me ) Thanks

Heart is not offal, it's a muscle (meat part of the diet). People add it when the meaty bones don't have a lot of meat on them (like chicken frames for example).

Your dog doesn't need any pasta (or any grains for that matter).

Prey model diet is basically feeding your dog whole animal just what wolves would eat in the wild (so all the meat, bones and all the organs).

[Bully]

Hi Snuffle,

Organ meat should be about 10% of the diet. Heart is not organ meat, it is muscle meat.

I feed a BARF diet along the lines of Dr Ian Billinghurst's "Give Your Dog A Bone" book. As he says "The diet doesn't have to be complete/balanced every day, as long as it balances out over time". Do you eat a complete/balanced diet every day? I know that I don't, but over a period of a week or 2 it should be balanced. It's the same with your dog.

I don't feed any grain or cereal either. As mentioned veggies need to be completely crushed as dogs can't digest celulose. In the wild they get their vegetable matter pre-digested from the stomachs of their prey.

[Snuffle]

Oh, cool. Thanks for that. I just assumed offal includes all internal organs.

Wouldn't they get a little bit of grains in the wild in the stomachs/crops(birds) of some animals (maybe not as much as i'm feeding atm so i'll feed less or take it out completely).

Re: complete/balanced- that makes sense Bully!! Thanks, i can't believe i never thought of it that way. So does my diet look close to complete/balanced or does it need a little more work? I might have to buy that book.

So does that mean we are feeding a prey model diet with BARF, because we feed them the meat, offal and bones? Or does it include fur and the rest of it? How do people manage this?

Thanks for your comments so far people!

[Guest Tess32]

BARF is not the same as prey model. Prey model includes a LOT more meat (meat is 80% and edible bone is only like, 15%). BARF has a lot more vegetable (up to 30%??), more bone, less meat.

I feed a combo

This is my dog's diet. Vegetables are only about two tablespoons.

Monday:

Breakfast: Vegetables, 100grams of liver, 1 chicken wing

Dinner: Lamb Neck

Tuesday:

Breakfast:Vegetables, beef, yoghurt

Dinner: Duck or chicken frames

Wednesday

Breakfast: Vegetables, salmon or sardines

Dinner: Maryland, Goat ribs or or turkey wings

Thursday:

Breakfast: Vegetables, 100 grams offal (kidney, pancreas, lungs), one chicken wing

Dinner: Lamb Neck

Friday

Breakfast: Vegetables, heart and tongue

Dinner: Duck frames, one egg

Saturday

Breakfast: Vegetables, chicken wing

Dinner: Maryland, turkey or goat

Sunday

Breakfast: Vegetables, beef tongue or heart

Dinner: Chicken frames

This way they get a few meals of just meat, about 5% offal in their weekly diet, a big raw meaty bone one day and the next day a bonier meal like chicken frames.

They get around 2% of their ideal body weight.

[WalandLibby]

http://monicasegal.com/

Monica does consults via email. I think there's a pretty long waiting list, but she's good. Her books and pamphlets are good too, although it's not an easy task to work out a diet yourself at the level of detail and care that she will do for you. But they do at least provide good info about the principles of balancing a diet.

Edited August 29, 2008 by WalandLibby

[mantis]

I'm surprised none of you put pasta or grains in your Barf. I put boiled rice, wheatgerm & rolled oats in Kenny's.

[puggy_puggy]

Snuffle your dogs diet looks pretty good to me.

Just cut out the rice. They don't need grains and it is often the grains that most dry foods are made of that causes the majority of skin problems that dogs get.

Also add some fish once a week. The Omega Oils fish contains is an essential part of the diet.

And yes food process the veggies & fruit.

[Guest Tess32]

I'm surprised none of you put pasta or grains in your Barf. I put boiled rice, wheatgerm & rolled oats in Kenny's.

I find them pointless and grains often cause issues.

[mantis]

I'm surprised none of you put pasta or grains in your Barf. I put boiled rice, wheatgerm & rolled oats in Kenny's.

I find them pointless and grains often cause issues.

Well Kenny's 10 & had no health issues, his coat is absolutely shiney & I put that down to the wheatgerm, OK the rice might be a filler, but it's full of carbs for energy & I am talking about feeding my 45kg dog, so adding rice & oats bulks out his food.

Edited August 29, 2008 by mantis

[Just Midol]

I don't use grains or pasta as it is empty nutrition.

However, if I was feeding a large dog who obtained all he needed but still needed a bit more food to "full him up" then I would consider using some, but I'd more than likely just feed more bones/meat.

[stormie]

I feed Orbit raw - no grains at all. He gets about 2-3% of his body weight in food each day. I personally don't really care if he doesn't feel full after his meat meal - he maintains perfect weight and is hungry for his next meal, so IMO he's eating enough!

[Guest Tess32]

I'm surprised none of you put pasta or grains in your Barf. I put boiled rice, wheatgerm & rolled oats in Kenny's.

I find them pointless and grains often cause issues.

Well Kenny's 10 & had no health issues, his coat is absolutely shiney & I put that down to the wheatgerm, OK the rice might be a filler, but it's full of carbs for energy & I am talking about feeding my 45kg dog, so adding rice & oats bulks out his food.

Dogs do not use carbs as energy the way we do. Dogs need a substantial amount of protein that they convert into ENERGY and muscle They don't need carbs to fuel them like we do. Dogs convert excess carbs to glucose.