Dogs That Play Too Roughly With Others

[kamuzz]

My GSD girl will be three at Christmas. We have a GSD boy as well, and until recently there has usually been one foster dog too.

From a succession of big, boofy fosters Jatz has learnt to play rough. Now when she is with another dog, she seems to have forgotten how to play nicely.

Her favourite trick at the moment is to "pin" the other dog down across the back of the neck. We recently had a beagle as a foster. She would "pin" him, he would squeal, she would let go, they would continue in a romp, she would pin him - continue in a loop ....

How do you persuade your dog to play gently?

My dogs regularly meet other dogs while out on their walks, and Jatz is always eager to play. She makes other dogs "nervous" because she is so rough. I've never seen another dog trying to "tell her off" and I'm not sure what her reaction would be.

[Wobbly]

I have had this issue too, except when Jarrah pinned the other dog by the throat and it squealed she didn't let go. She had to be prised off.

Needless to say once this happened a couple of times in the first few weeks I had her (got her as an adolescent 8 - 11 months?), she was only allowed offleash where there were no other dogs.

Now I've had her longer and I know her better, we're back to the dog beach.

Mostly still on lead if there's other dogs about though.

I have 2 methods of dealing with it - the first was suggested by K9Force Steve.

I let her play on leash, when she looks like she is getting too excited, (over excitement was her trigger the couple of times I saw it), I pull her away, no more play time when she acts like that. She's smart, I'm pretty sure she's made the connection now - excess excitement means game over - we go home. She has been coming along well with this method, she's even displaying nice play manners with a dog she once pinned now, laying on her back to play with the other dog (the other dog is a bit smaller and a gentle soul) she knows when she's on her back and gentle & calm I'll let her play as long as she likes. But I'm not willing to let her play off-leash with most dogs to check if this method has really taught her any manners or bite inhibition - I don't want to risk her scaring another dog again. People always ask me to let her off to play with their dogs because she seems so friendly & playful on leash, but no way will I. I trust her on leash now, but not off.

The second method is simple - there are a few dogs she does play nicely with. They're all large entire males (which suggests to me dominance comprises at least some of her issue). She respects their alpha maleness, and doesn't try to pin them. One of them, a Pitty x Bull Terrier is particularly great with her, he's doesn't wrestle - just bounces her off his shoulder if she tries, he's a stick chaser, so they play tug with the stick and don't contact eachother with their mouths.

When Jarrah did pin the other dogs, she had approached the other dog with a play bow, or even a submissive roll on her back, and they'd have a ball wrestling and playing chasies, then wham, she pin them the other dog never knew what hit it, so there were no dominant displays I missed that another dog would pick though - it was right out of the blue - and at first I thought she was just playing too rough, perhaps had never learnt bite inhibition. But I think that because she won't do it to larger entire males, the pinning & biting behaviour was dominance related - even though it looked like play, play bows & all & the other dog thought they were playing, I think she'd get over excited and perhaps it flipped her Pit Bull fighting heritage switch.

I'm not sure if that's any help - Jatz may not be intending to give a dominant message like Jarrah, she might genuinely think other dogs can take the punishment.

I'm really no expert, but these 2 methods works for me - on leash play, or a small handful of entire males we know very well.

Perhaps someone with more experience might give better methods and ideas - I'd be very interested to hear too.

[shoemonster]

We did a similar thing to Wobbly, Molly is over the top and also very vocal, not a good combo for freaking out the other dogs, so she got time out and lost the right to play for even looking like she was gonna get silly. She soon realised if she played rough it meant the end of play

Once she relaxed she could go back to play, but any silliness and straight back on

Edited August 26, 2008 by shoemonster

[dee lee]

I have had this issue too, except when Jarrah pinned the other dog by the throat and it squealed she didn't let go. She had to be prised off.

Needless to say once this happened a couple of times in the first few weeks I had her (got her as an adolescent 8 - 11 months?), she was only allowed offleash where there were no other dogs.

Wow Wobbly- snap again! This is exactly the same thing Evie did. We got a self imposed ban from the dog park after a few bad instances (sort of- I was warned about dangerous dog laws by someone). Nasty and scary isnt it? Evie is never off leash anymore- our area is too high population density, there is always a dog around the corner. I simply do not trust her. On leash she is still rather rough so I think I will try your suggestions.

Kamuzz, if the other dogs dont tell her off- do they exhibit submission?

[Wobbly]

My other post is full of typos, it was 2am so my brain was a bit broken when I wrote it.

Your dogs are gorgeous Shoemonster

I'm glad to hear the same method worked for you too, gives me hope one day Jarrah will be able to contain her excitement enough to play off leash with any dog (like maybe when she's 15 yrs old )

Yeah Deelee - I read your thread where you discussed Evie doing it, that's when I thought OMG Evie & Jarrah = soul sisters! We had 3 instances, after the third time it was really difficult to disengage her mouth from the other dog, I followed up on the dog she bit, poor thing got a huge fright, but fortunately didn't end up with any fear issues about playing with other dogs. That was my big worry though, that she'd scare someone's dog into fear issues. She's been really good lately - she got over her "adolescent rebelliousness" about 3 days after a consult with Steve K9Force

That pinning by the throat - it looked like it was part of a great game & she just got carried away, but when I think about it, and has been pointed out to me - dogs communicate via body language, and pinning another dog by it's throat is a pretty clear gesture of dominance.

Kamuzz - Jatz's behaviour sounds quite different to Jarrah's because she is pinning by the back of the neck, not trying to force the other dog onto it's back, and not holding on either. Molly's rough play also sounds quite different to Jarrah's, but the "no more playtime if you're too rough" method seems pretty versatile. Like Shoemoster, I pull Jarrah away at the very first hint of roughness rather than let her build up any momentum with it so she learns to not even start getting over the top.

I'm pretty inexperienced though, so I'd still love to hear what other experienced trainers think if any will chime in here.

[Clyde]

George gets frequent time outs.

He starts off nicely but then gets too rough.

Although we just dont go to dog parks anymore, and he is fine with most clients dogs here so long as they don't move too quickly I have absolute verbal control here though.

[kamuzz]

Kamuzz - Jatz's behaviour sounds quite different to Jarrah's because she is pinning by the back of the neck, not trying to force the other dog onto it's back, and not holding on either. Molly's rough play also sounds quite different to Jarrah's, but the "no more playtime if you're too rough" method seems pretty versatile. Like Shoemoster, I pull Jarrah away at the very first hint of roughness rather than let her build up any momentum with it so she learns to not even start getting over the top.

Jatz tends to let go as soon as the other dog "squeaks", and looks a bit surprised. But then she will pounce again ....

[Wobbly]

I would love to know what's going on in their heads -

Whether Jatz is letting him know she's in control, or whether she remembers this behaviour spurred the bigger dogs on to play more intensely and the game got more fun and she's hoping it'll ramp it up with the littler dog in the same way it did with the bigger dogs, so she does it again & again, hoping the little guy will eventually get the point?

I know Jarrah's been trying to teach the Pit Bull cross she plays tug with to chase her with the stick - she reefs the stick off him & runs away looking back over her shoulder to say "C'mon, chase me!". While he's left standing there wondering why the hell she's run away when they were having so much fun playing tug. He doesn't get it all, he's not a chasey dog. But since the Mastiff boy she plays with will chase her (not very convincingly, he's not built for speed or stamina at all but they still have fun with it) she keeps trying it with the Pit X in hopes he'll eventually "get it" and give chase too.

I'm not an expert - Jarrah's the first dog I've owned as an adult, but I'd imagine that regardless of Jatz's motives, keeping her on leash for play and stopping the game when it gets out of hand would teach her the boundaries that you want her to learn and respect.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Wobbly

[Riley'n'Mia]

My 14 month old GSD also plays too rough with other dogs & gets very jealous & protective of my 12 month old JRT he starts off by lunging at other dogs straight away & trys to get my JRT away from them, he eventually calms down & plays nice but I generally won't allow him to be near the other dogs for long enough to get to the calmer stage I just move him on straight away as I am not very strong & if he tried to dominate a dog that got aggressive I'd be in all sorts of trouble.

[Steve K9Pro]

Wobbly: I let her play on leash, when she looks like she is getting too excited, (over excitement was her trigger the couple of times I saw it), I pull her away, no more play time when she acts like that. She's smart, I'm pretty sure she's made the connection now - excess excitement means game over - we go home. She has been coming along well with this method, she's even displaying nice play manners with a dog she once pinned now, laying on her back to play with the other dog (the other dog is a bit smaller and a gentle soul) she knows when she's on her back and gentle & calm I'll let her play as long as she likes.

K9: Spot on... There is no better advise than what Wobbly has written... Nice to see you remembered it exactly as I prescribed it & its working for you!

[kamuzz]

Wobbly: I let her play on leash, when she looks like she is getting too excited, (over excitement was her trigger the couple of times I saw it), I pull her away, no more play time when she acts like that. She's smart, I'm pretty sure she's made the connection now - excess excitement means game over - we go home. She has been coming along well with this method, she's even displaying nice play manners with a dog she once pinned now, laying on her back to play with the other dog (the other dog is a bit smaller and a gentle soul) she knows when she's on her back and gentle & calm I'll let her play as long as she likes.

K9: Spot on... There is no better advise than what Wobbly has written... Nice to see you remembered it exactly as I prescribed it & its working for you!

Don't you love it when your students pay attention!

Would you expect to progress from play on leash to play off leash in time?

[Wobbly]

Wobbly: I let her play on leash, when she looks like she is getting too excited, (over excitement was her trigger the couple of times I saw it), I pull her away, no more play time when she acts like that. She's smart, I'm pretty sure she's made the connection now - excess excitement means game over - we go home. She has been coming along well with this method, she's even displaying nice play manners with a dog she once pinned now, laying on her back to play with the other dog (the other dog is a bit smaller and a gentle soul) she knows when she's on her back and gentle & calm I'll let her play as long as she likes.

K9: Spot on... There is no better advise than what Wobbly has written... Nice to see you remembered it exactly as I prescribed it & its working for you!

Yeah Steve - she got over her "adolescent rebellion" about 3 days after we saw you ;)

Quite amazing - I'm thinking I can replaster & paint the door frames she tore holes in now & they'll stay painted. She's stopped trying to entice Mr Wobbly into playing with her by mouthing him too She brings over a toy and sits down in front of him now.

She's also going really well in drive building - she'll hold onto a toy while I swing her round in circles all four feet off the ground. I inadvertently made her new call name "Hey Wagglyhead" though, I was just concentrating on building drive with no commands, so I'd say "Hey Wagglyhead" to get her attention when it was time to play. She's got a super reliable recall with "Hey Wagglyhead" now. She'd always come for food before, but nowhere near as passionately or quickly as she does for tug o war.

There's still a few bits of your other advices we have yet to implement properly though - I'll PM you!

She's really easy these days :p

Thankyou :p

[Steve K9Pro]

K: Don't you love it when your students pay attention! :p

K9: more than anyone would believe...

Would you expect to progress from play on leash to play off leash in time?

K9: yes thats usually easily achieved once the play is under control...

W: Yeah Steve - she got over her "adolescent rebellion" about 3 days after we saw you

Quite amazing - I'm thinking I can replaster & paint the door frames she tore holes in now & they'll stay painted. ;) She's stopped trying to entice Mr Wobbly into playing with her by mouthing him too She brings over a toy and sits down in front of him now.

She's also going really well in drive building - she'll hold onto a toy while I swing her round in circles all four feet off the ground. I inadvertently made her new call name "Hey Wagglyhead" though, I was just concentrating on building drive with no commands, so I'd say "Hey Wagglyhead" to get her attention when it was time to play. She's got a super reliable recall with "Hey Wagglyhead" now. She'd always come for food before, but nowhere near as passionately or quickly as she does for tug o war.

K9: I am really glad to hear she is going well, your doing a great job by the sounds of it, very, very well done...! Really proud of what guys are doing!

There's still a few bits of your other advices we have yet to implement properly though - I'll PM you!

She's really easy these days :D

Thankyou ;)

K9: Yep I will be awaiting the email, your very welcome..

W: