Advice On A Friend's Pom

[Domestic Dreamer]

My friend's female Pomeranian is 2 yrs old. She's rarely taken for walks, and hasn't really been socialised with other dogs/people. Because the dog is only 2.1kgs, her owner is afraid other dogs will hurt her and will usually pick her up if another dog approaches. But most of the time she's not walked anyway. At home, she's really aggressive with strangers. The last time we were there my friend was carrying her because she wouldn't stop barking, and she growled if we came near. We didn't reach out to pat her, but she'd have bitten us if we had. On neutral ground she's not growly, more timid. She'll sniff my finger if I hold it out to her but I wouldn't dare try anything more since my friend warned that she'd bite. There are 4 young children at their house (ranging from 1 yr to primary school age) and she's fine with the family since she knows them well but I still think her behaviour is far from ideal. She's spoilt, and carried a lot. Oh, and she'll bite her owner when she tries to brush her so she doesn't really get brushed, the occasional matt is just cut out. Her food (Advance dry) is left out and she grazes, hence she's never hungry or interested in food reward training. She hasn't really been trained. No recall to speak of etc.

Can anyone give advice on handling the aggression? At the moment she's a vicious (very beautiful) little ratdog that no one but my friend likes.

Sasha (my 5 yr old Cav) is very easy going and gentle, one thing I thought of to help is perhaps start having some playdates? I figure most of the work would need to be done at home though...

ETA: They've met before when we took our dogs for a walk. Her dog was a bit timid during the initial sniffs, then Sasha ignored her and they pretty much didn't interact for the rest of the walk.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Maiko

[Nekhbet]

until that dog has some control over it I would not be introducing it.

The dog is king of its little cosmos and the owners reinforce it time and time again it seems. I do agree that a 2.1kg pom is a little small to be allowed to play with larger dogs in a dog park etc I think the risks outweigh the benefits for it. This dog needs an all round overhaul ... if you can convince the owners to change their ways - the dog is the easy bit!

I would tell them, imagine that pomeranian weighed 60kg and behaved the same way - they would have called the ranger long ago and been terrified of it. That is a start!

There are so many things I think calling a trainer in to help and develop a plan of attack is the best thing. The dog needs step by step behavior modification at a pace the owners can comply with and does not risk the children being bitten.

[Domestic Dreamer]

until that dog has some control over it I would not be introducing it.

The dog is king of its little cosmos and the owners reinforce it time and time again it seems. I do agree that a 2.1kg pom is a little small to be allowed to play with larger dogs in a dog park etc I think the risks outweigh the benefits for it. This dog needs an all round overhaul ... if you can convince the owners to change their ways - the dog is the easy bit!

I would tell them, imagine that pomeranian weighed 60kg and behaved the same way - they would have called the ranger long ago and been terrified of it. That is a start!

There are so many things I think calling a trainer in to help and develop a plan of attack is the best thing. The dog needs step by step behavior modification at a pace the owners can comply with and does not risk the children being bitten.

Thanks for the reply Nekhbet, convincing the owner is a tricky thing. The dog's never bitten the children, but has growled at them. I don't want to offend her owner or make her defensive, and because the dog is so tiny I guess she sees the issues as undesirable but not intolerable. Because of this it is very unlikely she'd agree to a trainer. I only hope I can give her some tips so she can slowly start making a few changes that will help.

Also with the grazing.. she's had a bout of diarrhoea lately and been listless but the owner can't tell what/if she's been eating. Has since had food removed for 24 hrs and is now on chicken and rice twice a day which she loves and just hoovers.

[Nekhbet]

unfortunately some people need a wake up call. But then again I dont mince words

the dog is not HAPPY. It is living a life of stress having to defend its family and constantly put them in line. Tell her that poms little hearts can't take the stress of being so aggressive all the time

Firstly the dog needs to be taught to behave. If it growls, I would grab it by the scruff, give it a big GRRRRR NO and when its finished its little tantrum put it outside.

Not pick up the dog, its reinforcing bad behavior and anxiety

not allowing the dog on furniture

posessing everything the dog needs - food comes out at set times and if it doesnt eat, tough

get it a crate and it has set times it goes in there too

it only greets visitors to the house on a leash. It is brought into the room, if it starts cranking see 1st point and goes outside again to be ignored

barking ferociously or too much gets same as 1st point until all is required is a loud NO

dog never gets anything it pushes for - paws for attention, sits and begs without being asked. If it doesnt comply with a command it definately knows, told once within 2 seconds owner walks off and ignores it.

thats a start. You cannot socialise a dog without gaining control over its mind first otherwise it will simply continue what has already happened. She still needs a trainer to help her with confidently handling and providing consequences to actions - mistiming and inconsistancy is an aggressive dogs best friend

ETA if it helps you can pass on my email address and I can talk to her for you

Edited August 22, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Domestic Dreamer]

Thanks Nekhbet, will see how I go with your suggestions, and let you know if I pass on your email.

[Guest Willow]

If her aggressive behaviour is motivated by fear (you mentioned she can be timid) then grabbing her & growling at her may just make her more fearful & make the problem worse.

Perhaps it would be an idea for her owner not to speak to her or make eye contact, but just swiftly put her out of the room, and close the door, until she is quiet, and then she can come back in. visitors don't pay attention to her, and her owner doesn't have her in her arms.

If the owner does have her in her arms & she growls, she should go on the floor immediately....that's really unacceptable behaviour.

[kateykateykatey]

She bites her owner! This dog rules the roost, no questions asked- and not happily either, it's obviously making her very stressed and unhappy.

What will it take to motivate the owner in to action? To bite one of the kids?

[poodlefan]

Sounds to me like the owner needs education or nothing will change.

This dog's behaviour sounds pretty much entirely the product of the time and effort that HASN'T been put into her development.

No walking, no socialisation...imagine how stressful the dog finds the odd walk she gets. No established boundaries of acceptable behaviour and confusion about her place in the pecking order. More stess. Never taught to accept brushing so it hurts every time now because the coat is matted... pain and stress.

Until the owner changes HER behaviour and steps up to meet her dogs needs, I expect you are wasting your breath.

2 kg or 60 kg they're all dogs, they all need exercise and they all need leadership and training.. On the socialistion side of things, the boat has pretty much sailed. What dogs don't get as pups, they don't always recover from.

I'd not be having my dog anywhere near this one unless the owner has a fundamental change of attitude. They haven't established any real bond of trust with the dog and they have little control over its behaviour. With a potentially fear aggressive dog, that's no recipe for a successful play date.

Edited August 22, 2008 by poodlefan

[Domestic Dreamer]

If her aggressive behaviour is motivated by fear (you mentioned she can be timid) then grabbing her & growling at her may just make her more fearful & make the problem worse.

Perhaps it would be an idea for her owner not to speak to her or make eye contact, but just swiftly put her out of the room, and close the door, until she is quiet, and then she can come back in. visitors don't pay attention to her, and her owner doesn't have her in her arms.

If the owner does have her in her arms & she growls, she should go on the floor immediately....that's really unacceptable behaviour.

Thanks for the alternative suggestion, I think that might suit better.

She bites her owner! This dog rules the roost, no questions asked- and not happily either, it's obviously making her very stressed and unhappy.

What will it take to motivate the owner in to action? To bite one of the kids?

She acknowledges the dog has issues but I don't think she realises there are things she can do to correct it while family members she can't control give the dog mixed signals (eg. feeding from the table then complaining when dog jumps up). Am working on that.

This dog's behaviour sounds pretty much entirely the product of the time and effort that HASN'T been put into her development.

I think it's mostly ignorance rather than not caring. Unfortunately I've been there myself.

ETA: Yay, progress! (of a kind). Got the opportunity to speak openly about it all. Dog's showing more signs of stress.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Maiko

[kateykateykatey]

She acknowledges the dog has issues but I don't think she realises there are things she can do to correct it while family members she can't control give the dog mixed signals (eg. feeding from the table then complaining when dog jumps up). Am working on that.

Firstly, it's great that she acknowledges the dog has issues, that's the first step.

As far as the family, how much can she not control what the family members do? Apart from her kids (who the dog growls at?) and her partner... I just reckon if they take the "Let's get on top of these behavioural issues otherwise she's going to end up biting one of the kids" angle, that might help. Kinda puts everything in to perspective when you look at it like that.

If her kids are 1- primary school age it should be pretty easy to explain to them not to feed the dog from the table (deliberately). I hope.

I suppose otherwise the alternative might have to be to put the dog in another room while their eating, which I imagine would make it bark a lot... and cause more stress to dog and family.

ETA: Yay, progress! (of a kind). Got the opportunity to speak openly about it all. Dog's showing more signs of stress.

That's awesome, you're a good friend for being so dedicated and caring. Poor dog and family though- it can't be a happy relationship for any of them.

[Domestic Dreamer]

As far as the family, how much can she not control what the family members do?

She lives at home, so it's her parents, sister, BIL, neices and nephews...

[poodlefan]

Maiko, your friend will have no difficulty with family members "corrupting" her dog at meal times if the dog is crated.

I honestly think crate training would make a big difference to both your friend and her dog while issues are worked on. A timid dog will safe and secure in a create with visitors in the house and your friend will have a lot more control over how her dog is interacted with.

How old is your friend? Does she have some income of her own?

[Nekhbet]

Willow unless the dog is rolling over, scuttling with its tail tucked in terror this little pom is not fearful. And the point of it is showing the dog this is NOT how to deal with a situation.

scared dogs will not naturally progress to lunging and biting - this is a confident dog that has its stupid behavior reinforced by its owner. More hands off approaches do NOT guide dogs but can give them power. The dog has no problems attacking people why not give it a correction for its dangerous behaviour?

[kateykateykatey]

As far as the family, how much can she not control what the family members do?

She lives at home, so it's her parents, sister, BIL, neices and nephews...

OOOH. Now I follow. Definitely agree with Poodlefan regarding the crating. Keeps it very simple and very clear that the dog isn't to be interacted with.

[skip]

This is all good advice but I have found something thru also trying to help when I see behavioural promblems. Unless the owner aknowledges things need to change, they don't normally change their methods of dealing with the dog.

Unless she wants your help I'll bet the owner is not 100% ready to listen. But hope maybe your friend is different. Sure that dog must be tired of all its hard work keeping all those humans in their box.

Great ideas thou to help.

I love your advice Willow! Esp about the visitors. I have a small girl who spent her first 8 months in a cage so not the best behaved at first. I was hosting a small dinner party for a mate who was recuperating at my home. All the quests bar one were there and the dogs were in the bedroom seperated by a gate. (I had a small home! ).

This last quest arrived and my girl dog went off, barking madly. Without hesitating I grabbed her and while she still blasting I put her outside. Quite and 5 mins later I opened door, picked her up and popped her over the cage door. I had never looked at her or tried to stop the behaviuor. She happily said hello to the other dog and went to bed. I was myself surprised how quickly that worked.

Good luck Maiko.

[Guest Willow]

Willow unless the dog is rolling over, scuttling with its tail tucked in terror this little pom is not fearful. And the point of it is showing the dog this is NOT how to deal with a situation.

scared dogs will not naturally progress to lunging and biting - this is a confident dog that has its stupid behavior reinforced by its owner. More hands off approaches do NOT guide dogs but can give them power. The dog has no problems attacking people why not give it a correction for its dangerous behaviour?

That's why I said "if" the behaviour is fear motivated. neither of us can tell, since we haven't seen her in action. It's totally possible that fearful dogs will lunge & bite.....if they have learned that this keeps people away, then they will do what works. I have seen plenty of people bitten by fearful dogs. It was a possible suggestion for the behaviour. I feel that unless i have seen the dog in action, I won't rule out fear as a motivator, and therefore wouldn't recommend something that would be counter-productive in a fearful dog (eg, a correction that may exacerbate the fear)

I love your advice Willow! Esp about the visitors.

Thank you skip

[Luke W]

Buy the owner a book (or a DVD) as a present.

I wouldn't normally recommend this one straight off the bat, but perhaps it's suitable in this circumstance.

The Dog Listener by Jan Fennel - it will highlight the pack position issue and hopefully motivate the owner to make some changes.

You could also start another thread asking for specific book recommendations that would suit the particular issues the owner has.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Luke W

[Domestic Dreamer]

Mini update: We were sitting in the park on the weekend, and there was your usual mix of children playing, dog walkers etc. Pom was a little nervous at first but seemed to settle down. Apart from sniffing me and Sasha a little she pretty much ignored us and I was able to pat her without reaction. Owner can do basic commands with her: come (on extenda-lead), sit, stay, and I did come and sit with her too. She was never really relaxed, always alert and aware, but maybe it's a Pom thing? Other dogs came over for a sniff, including a beautiful, calm Golden Retriever, and the Pom was fine. At home is a different story, so sounds like she's being territorial?

[Nekhbet]

she's in her safety zone at home and is rewarded for it. Not uncommon. If she was fear aggressive and hideously undersocialised I would expect reactions in the park as well as at home.

I think she's just spoilt rotten.

[~*Shell*~]

I agree - i think she's just being territorial at home. I would suggest getting your friend a dvd like The Dog listener, or maybe season 1 of the dog whisperer. Your friend just has to realise that their dog is being a brat - it's hard, but once they realise that it'll be better for both them and the dog!