Advice About Chelsea's Behaviour

[iltby]

I'm seeking advice about what to do with Chelsea (Husky) in regards to her fear of people. We've no idea what her background is but she's terrified of essentially everyone aside from my mum and me. She's okay with a few female friends - seems to be less scared of women than men and also responds better to shorter people - but certainly not what I would call comfortable around anyone else. Since we got her - think we've had her about a year and 2 months now - she has improved with my dad slightly, though she's still very nervy and scared around him. She will come a lot closer to him than she used to, though she never directly approaches him. I get the feeling she would like to approach people, in fact when Shmoo was up a few weeks ago we had her call Chelsea in a sing-song voice and encouraged her by being playful and silly and she actually got very excited which she'd never done before so that was a good improvement. Generally when there's a stranger in the house and she's not in her crate, she'll stay rigid and alert the whole time and won't take her eye off them. So I do think she's keen to interact with people, there's just the fear that something bad will happen if she risks it. In general when we have guests or someone come to the door, she's put straight in her crate as it's her sanctuary.

To clarify-

When in her crate- When we have guests and she's in her crate, she'll curl up into a corner for about 5 minutes and then lie down, mostly facing away from the guest - sort of as if to say 'I won't acknowledge you're there, I'd rather pretend you're not'.

However, when out of her crate- she runs around the house almost the entire time without taking her eye off the stranger.

I should also note that she does do some soft woofing if she gets startled by someone but has never been fear aggressive.

I'd absolutely love to fix the problem, or at least improve it, as she's got the most wonderful personality and as I said before, I'm sure she wants to interact with people but is just too scared to risk it.

This is just my summary of her behaviour, possibly my interpretation is incorrect? Sorry if the above post didn't make much sense, I find her behaviour very hard to portray. All in all she's very scared/nervous of people she's not familiar with but does take some interest in them (as opposed to running away and hiding). Any advice or suggestions are welcome!

[Jen]

I'm seeking advice about what to do with Chelsea (Husky) in regards to her fear of people. We've no idea what her background is but she's terrified of essentially everyone aside from my mum and me. She's okay with a few female friends - seems to be less scared of women than men and also responds better to shorter people - but certainly not what I would call comfortable around anyone else. Since we got her - think we've had her about a year and 2 months now - she has improved with my dad slightly, though she's still very nervy and scared around him. She will come a lot closer to him than she used to, though she never directly approaches him. I get the feeling she would like to approach people, in fact when Shmoo was up a few weeks ago we had her call Chelsea in a sing-song voice and encouraged her by being playful and silly and she actually got very excited which she'd never done before so that was a good improvement. Generally when there's a stranger in the house and she's not in her crate, she'll stay rigid and alert the whole time and won't take her eye off them. So I do think she's keen to interact with people, there's just the fear that something bad will happen if she risks it. In general when we have guests or someone come to the door, she's put straight in her crate as it's her sanctuary.

To clarify-

When in her crate- When we have guests and she's in her crate, she'll curl up into a corner for about 5 minutes and then lie down, mostly facing away from the guest - sort of as if to say 'I won't acknowledge you're there, I'd rather pretend you're not'.

However, when out of her crate- she runs around the house almost the entire time without taking her eye off the stranger.

I should also note that she does do some soft woofing if she gets startled by someone but has never been fear aggressive.

I'd absolutely love to fix the problem, or at least improve it, as she's got the most wonderful personality and as I said before, I'm sure she wants to interact with people but is just too scared to risk it.

This is just my summary of her behaviour, possibly my interpretation is incorrect? Sorry if the above post didn't make much sense, I find her behaviour very hard to portray. All in all she's very scared/nervous of people she's not familiar with but does take some interest in them (as opposed to running away and hiding). Any advice or suggestions are welcome!

Hi,

I had a similar problem with a rescue kelpie I had. I got every one who came to our house to give her a treat. At first they would throw it on the floor because they couldnt get close to her. Eventually, and it took months, she would take food from people at the door. You have to leave some treats available near the door all the time and tell people in advance so they understand to come armed with food and to speak quietly and calmly.

If your dog doesnt like food from strangers you need to find something that she really loves. maybe a something really special like a chicken wing or a toy. Remember, she has been afraid for a long time and it will take a long time to change, but it can happen. Good luck, Jen

[Nekhbet]

If you have had her over a year then this behavior has gone on too long. My rescue shepherd had massive fear issues ( I mean rolled over and peed himself if you lifted a hand) but after a few weeks was definately not the same dog.

You let her decide what to do. She is showing confusion and lack of confidence and you let her run with it. It doesnt matter what happened to the dog before you got it, you have it now and you need to shape its behavior. In essence by letting the dog wander around without any inclination of weather the situation is going to swing in a good or bad direction is freaking her out! Thats why she eyes of strangers - who are you, what are your intentions, why are my females nervous, what is going on - and you watch her.

Your dad should be taking the dog for a walk and showing leadership. You should have her on a leash when a stranger arrives, have them do what shmoo did "hellooooo puppy" in a quiet but high pitched voice and encourage her to be happy. Dont let her pull back be strict with her because her habitual anxiety needs to be released before she can relax. I wouldnt bother with food until the dog has learned to calm down around people because the mind is elsewhere. Then do not let her wander around them put her crate in another room and give her a bone or treat and put her in there.

Dogs have problems because we allow them to perpetuate. Unless the dog is completely manic, which it is obviously not, problems come down to lack of leadership and confidence. I would call in a trainer to help you with the dog, K9 force is pretty much the only person I know up there to help you.

ETA the reason I dont like food in an anxious situation is because for some dogs food is another stress causing factor. The dog should be focussing on accepting the object/person not trying to duck in and quickly snatch the food. So instead of some dogs going - ooh that thing i'm unsure about has some yummy food - you get more of a - omg i'm hungry, will i get the food or will it get me instead - double stress.

Edited August 20, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Just Midol]

If you have had her over a year then this behavior has gone on too long. My rescue shepherd had massive fear issues ( I mean rolled over and peed himself if you lifted a hand) but after a few weeks was definately not the same dog.

You let her decide what to do. She is showing confusion and lack of confidence and you let her run with it. It doesnt matter what happened to the dog before you got it, you have it now and you need to shape its behavior. In essence by letting the dog wander around without any inclination of weather the situation is going to swing in a good or bad direction is freaking her out! Thats why she eyes of strangers - who are you, what are your intentions, why are my females nervous, what is going on - and you watch her.

Your dad should be taking the dog for a walk and showing leadership. You should have her on a leash when a stranger arrives, have them do what shmoo did "hellooooo puppy" in a quiet but high pitched voice and encourage her to be happy. Dont let her pull back be strict with her because her habitual anxiety needs to be released before she can relax. I wouldnt bother with food until the dog has learned to calm down around people because the mind is elsewhere. Then do not let her wander around them put her crate in another room and give her a bone or treat and put her in there.

Dogs have problems because we allow them to perpetuate. Unless the dog is completely manic, which it is obviously not, problems come down to lack of leadership and confidence. I would call in a trainer to help you with the dog, K9 force is pretty much the only person I know up there to help you.

ETA the reason I dont like food in an anxious situation is because for some dogs food is another stress causing factor. The dog should be focussing on accepting the object/person not trying to duck in and quickly snatch the food. So instead of some dogs going - ooh that thing i'm unsure about has some yummy food - you get more of a - omg i'm hungry, will i get the food or will it get me instead - double stress.

I took Chelsea for walks heaps when I was there and I doubt we had any improvement at all. She might have been a tiny bit more settled but nothing major.

From what I can gather you are suggesting that she forces Chelsea to remain around men? Are you sure this will help and not be detrimental?

Edited August 20, 2008 by Lord Midol

[iltby]

Jen, thanks for the help, to be honest I think I'll steer away from using food in this situation for now, we have tried it in the past and it didn't prove to be effective

Nekhbet, I hope you don't think I'm being rude, just want to correct you on a few things-

- Chelsea is put in her crate 90% of the time when we have guests over (I should have made this clear) - she's not left to run around feeling confused or nervous as I don't think it's productive. She's occasionally left out when my dad comes over (he doesn't live here) as she's slightly more comfortable with him.

- Our leadership is fairly strong, I don't think the problem is that she doesn't trust or respect us.

- We don't get stressed or nervous when she is, we always remain relaxed and casual in these situations.

- I agree, the behaviour has gone on too long, however we have attempted to correct it via various methods, we just haven't had much luck.

Anyway, thanks for your suggestions, I will get my dad to take her for walks, that sounds like it could be promising. In regards to the suggestion of putting her on the leash when we have guests, I'm not sure how helpful that would be. Going off past experiences, forcing her into situations she doesn't like hasn't been effective - what do you think? She's met Shmoo more than once, she's actually babysat Chelsea, hence why she's more comfortable around her. I'd just be worried that a flat out stranger acting excited and such would freak her out more than relax her. In your experience, does persevering with it help or could it make the anxiety worse? I'm happy to try it, I'm just not sure whether pushing her is helpful or not.

Also, we've seen Steve and I've taken a course of his on behaviour and temperament - I think I asked him for any suggestions he might have for Chelsea though he wasn't sure if he would be able to help. Might have another chat to him if your (or others') suggestions don't work out

I agree, using food isn't helpful (one of the things we've tried in the past) as she reacted exactly how you described above.

Thanks for your help, it's much appreciated.

EFS.

ETA: Michael thinks he saw a slight improvement when he was down here and interacted with her, but he was only here for 3 weeks, so it was very difficult to monitor any changes :/

She'll basically do anything if she has to (such as walk on a lead with a stranger), but it never results in improvement. I guess we haven't been persistent or consistent enough.

Edited August 20, 2008 by iltby

[Nekhbet]

aha sorry from your post I didnt realise she was in her crate most of the time.

Midol I dont mean force as in drag a kicking and screaming dog towards men, but a leash is a link between the owner and dog. A dog allowed to run around and eye off strangers cannot be shown leadership by the owner. She can be walked past visitors or be put on a leash and made to sit quietly with her owner in the same room. The visitors can ignore her completely.

So I do think she's keen to interact with people, there's just the fear that something bad will happen if she risks it.

She doesnt trust it wont happen so what is perpetuating her fear? After 12+ months a dog should be able to relax so have a good look at what happens and if she makes attempts what do you do. If you fulfill a dogs expectations the behavior will continue. It can be as simple as

_> I expect visitors cause me stress

-> ooooh I dont know how to behave, should i get a pat or not

-> I feel stressed

-> visitors have caused me to stress!!! OMG I will avoid them

dogs brains If you put her on a leash and simply ignore her stress responses. Lead her - visitor is here and you sit here and behave. Only comfort her when she starts to relax. She will pull out her typical responses, avoiding looking at them, trying to move away but do not let her. Be a reasonable distance from them as well. She should gradually run out of 'make them go away' tricks and settle. Then when the visitor leaves dont let them talk or look at her, walk her out of the room.

I dont see why K9 force couldnt be in on something like this as well as he would know the right canine body language to use to help her feel at ease in a situation as above. Unless she has massive issues then get a veterinary behaviorist and meds.

[Just Midol]

aha sorry from your post I didnt realise she was in her crate most of the time.

Midol I dont mean force as in drag a kicking and screaming dog towards men, but a leash is a link between the owner and dog. A dog allowed to run around and eye off strangers cannot be shown leadership by the owner. She can be walked past visitors or be put on a leash and made to sit quietly with her owner in the same room. The visitors can ignore her completely.

That makes more sense.

ILTBY never actually saw me handle Chelsea (well, she did a bit) but Chelsea would actually sit for me.

Just as an example we'd be in a room to go outside, I make all the dogs sit in front of me and be calm then let them out. She would actually come up and sit down, but she wouldn't come to my outside or in any other rooms.

Not sure if that changes anything, but more info is always good!

[Nekhbet]

does chelsea have prey drive? she sounds like my old sheppy boy and he was hideously undersocialised, bonded more to dogs and very mentally immature so more manly men (deep voices, solid stature) became an issue. Softer spoken men didnt fuss him as much and he got over them faster. My dad has a very deep voice and quite solid, Krueger took months to get over his fear of him. Once Kruegs trusted me I walked him over and got him to sit with my dad and after another couple of months he accepted him. I didnt allow Krueger to show his old "I have to run away' behavior and he got over it.

As for running from you ignore her completely. If you make gestures towards her she perceives this again as you causing her stress, dont even look at her or acknowledge her existance. I would be getting iltby to put her on a lead and hand her to people so she has no opportunity to make up her own mind about situations. She finds her own reasons to be stressed about people so offlead work will not lead to very much, it will be a bigger struggle then you have now. Also I would be giving the other dogs a lot of attention and ignoring her. If she follows the other dogs leads, and she starts missing out on fun things she will become frustrated - frustration leads to bucking up the courage to get in there and play. If she does dont make a fuss just continue like she is not there. Her behavior will reward herself.

I'm going off what you have told me but she sounds similar to Krueger, undersocialised and whatever socialising she did get wasnt good quality.

ETA I'm from a rather no nonsense school of dog training I do use flooding and stress on dogs BUT I do not advocate it to owners who may cause detriment to the dogs. Krueger was flooded but I had the confidence to handle a dog of his size and I understood his temperament was right for that training. It did him a world of good and turned him around quickly - once again not a method I would condone without a professional trainer YOU trust.

Edited August 21, 2008 by Nekhbet

[iltby]

So I do think she's keen to interact with people, there's just the fear that something bad will happen if she risks it.

She doesnt trust it wont happen so what is perpetuating her fear? After 12+ months a dog should be able to relax so have a good look at what happens and if she makes attempts what do you do. If you fulfill a dogs expectations the behavior will continue. It can be as simple as

_> I expect visitors cause me stress

-> ooooh I dont know how to behave, should i get a pat or not

-> I feel stressed

-> visitors have caused me to stress!!! OMG I will avoid them

dogs brains If you put her on a leash and simply ignore her stress responses. Lead her - visitor is here and you sit here and behave. Only comfort her when she starts to relax. She will pull out her typical responses, avoiding looking at them, trying to move away but do not let her. Be a reasonable distance from them as well. She should gradually run out of 'make them go away' tricks and settle. Then when the visitor leaves dont let them talk or look at her, walk her out of the room.

I dont see why K9 force couldnt be in on something like this as well as he would know the right canine body language to use to help her feel at ease in a situation as above. Unless she has massive issues then get a veterinary behaviorist and meds.

It's hard to explain really. Often we'll be sitting at the kitchen table having tea and biscuits and if she's out, she hangs around Mum and me but gets fairly close to my dad. Mostly she'll just sit or stand near him, observing what he does - she gets very close to him, but as I said I don't think she's ever directly approached him. She's always interested in him, just doesn't want to interact directly with him. Again, we just carry on like normal, if she were to approach him we'd praise her, but for now we just carry on having a conversation, etc.

I'm definitely going to try putting her on a leash whenever we have visitors, I think it sounds promising. So when the visitor arrives, I clip her on the lead and have her by my side - do I tell the visitors to completely ignore her? One issue I can see occurring is that people seem to have a listening problem in that they don't

We have actually spoken to our vet about this who prescribed Valium or some similar drug which we tried her on for a few weeks, but it didn't seem to result in any improvement so we stopped it.

Also, Michael will be seeing Steve in October so I'll remember to bring it up with him then.

does chelsea have prey drive? she sounds like my old sheppy boy and he was hideously undersocialised, bonded more to dogs and very mentally immature so more manly men (deep voices, solid stature) became an issue. Softer spoken men didnt fuss him as much and he got over them faster. My dad has a very deep voice and quite solid, Krueger took months to get over his fear of him. Once Kruegs trusted me I walked him over and got him to sit with my dad and after another couple of months he accepted him. I didnt allow Krueger to show his old "I have to run away' behavior and he got over it.

As for running from you ignore her completely. If you make gestures towards her she perceives this again as you causing her stress, dont even look at her or acknowledge her existance. I would be getting iltby to put her on a lead and hand her to people so she has no opportunity to make up her own mind about situations. She finds her own reasons to be stressed about people so offlead work will not lead to very much, it will be a bigger struggle then you have now. Also I would be giving the other dogs a lot of attention and ignoring her. If she follows the other dogs leads, and she starts missing out on fun things she will become frustrated - frustration leads to bucking up the courage to get in there and play. If she does dont make a fuss just continue like she is not there. Her behavior will reward herself.

I'm going off what you have told me but she sounds similar to Krueger, undersocialised and whatever socialising she did get wasnt good quality.

ETA I'm from a rather no nonsense school of dog training I do use flooding and stress on dogs BUT I do not advocate it to owners who may cause detriment to the dogs. Krueger was flooded but I had the confidence to handle a dog of his size and I understood his temperament was right for that training. It did him a world of good and turned him around quickly - once again not a method I would condone without a professional trainer YOU trust.

Chelsea does have a fairly high prey drive, though more than anything else she loves cuddles Affection (from my mum and me) seems to override food or prey for her and while she has bonded well with our other dogs, Scarlet in particular, I'd be pretty confident in saying she's happier being with us.

In regards to the giving the other dogs more attention trick, we have tried this in the past, but again haven't had much luck with it - however, that was when she was either offlead or in her crate. So do you think we should try it with her onlead and she'd eventually approach people?

She is undersocialised which is obviously our fault, my being unwell prevents us from socialising at all really, so we've sort of been trying to make do with any opportunities that arise.

Thanks again for the help, I'll get Mike to have another look at this and see what he says

Edited August 22, 2008 by iltby

[PandaGirl]

Valium in humans takes more than a few weeks to show any benefits, I'm guessing it would be the same in dogs.

[Nekhbet]

valium suppresses the anxiety emotions it doesnt 'fix' them, and should be used with intensive training once at effective levels. If you have her on valium then whip her off it quickly you probably would have noticed some weird behaviour for a little while.

Remember the basics of your dogs head

- what's in it for me

- dogs follow behavioural patterns and routines, even very subtle ones (x means Y will happen)

- dogs will follow the consistant and persistant leader. If no one is a constant leader they will make up their own minds

- dog will naturally continue their current behavior if it gets them the result they want - sometimes expect a tantrum (extinction burst) if you try and push the dog into a new path

- as I said, if you fulfil the dogs expectations the behavior will continue

If your guests cannot listen to your request move her out of the room completely and put her outside. If you cant control it dont push it. YOu have hit the nail on the head, socialisation is about quality, not just quantity. So far her socialisation has been uncontrolled and allowed her to form 'bad habits' in our eyes. She is also a naturally aloof breed so dont expect her to jump into laps, just to accept people in her space without stress and rediculous pacing behavior.

I think I need to take a road trip up and visit you for a while

[iltby]

Thanks PandaGirl, that's interesting. We just followed the vet's instructions - trial her for a few weeks and take her off it if we didn't notice any change.

Nekh, obviously we didn't expect it to fix her, I know better than that But it didn't result in any change over a period of 3 or 4 weeks, so I stopped it.

I'll test the lead method tonight when my dad comes over and let you know how we go.

You're welcome to come for a visit, bet you'd fall in love with her

[Jen]

Hi, if food doesnt help then you need to find out what it is she really likes. You can train her on your own at first and find out what food she wil do anything for. I have had heaps of clients tell me that their dog wont work for food. I have a border collie who was also like that but you need to find the food she loves and teach her to enjoy it. If you really believe she is not food orientated then teach her to play. Whether it is a ball or a tug toy you can teach her to play. It takes time but once she learns she will be addicted then it is time to let other people interact with her as well. If she is afraid of men, then let her start with females that she does not know. gradually introduce those that she is uncomfortable with. I still believe that you can make any dog food orientated in time as you can with play. you have to take this very slowly with a dog who can not trust but believe me it can be done.

Jen

[iltby]

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. It's not that she's not food oriented, she loves her food, the problem is just that as Nekh mentioned above, she simply ducks in and quickly snatches the food, meaning she's essentially being rewarded for doing nothing. We have tried toys before which were a bit more successful, but again, we have been consistent enough with them - will definitely try to incorporate them somehow, maybe once she's become more confident onlead?

[Nekhbet]

Sometimes leadership and confidence from the owner can be enough to reward the dog. There is no need to stuff toys and food down a dogs throat for simply existing and behaving according to what is acceptable and what is not. You are not training tricks you are socialising. Also introducing toys to an already anxious dog and increasing drive + anxiety means you are moving away from what you are trying to train - a calm, relaxed dog. You cant teach that hyping it up with a toy.

Very few of my clients dogs get food/toy rewards. Their owners leadership and praise is enough as a basis. When she is relaxed, stroke her gently and you confirm she is doing well. That works as well, if not better, then auxiliary treats.