Getting Confused About Correcting A Puppy

[Gerda the Schnauzer]

Hi there,

I hope this is the right section (or puppy??). I have been asking advice from lots of people/resources about sorting out the normal puppy behaviours like jumping and biting. My schnauzer is 9 weeks old. I have had everything from a rolled up newspaper on the nose to imitate the mother's behaviour to a firm 'no', to nothing at all until 4.5 months....... So far we have tended to 'bah' at her in a low voice (because my daughter could do it too) and a bit of a shove with the leg if required to get her off someone/something. My biggest concern is a show of fear sometimes from her, its really upsetting and I don't want her to be afraid of me, but on the same note I can't have her biting the children (or me!).

What methods do you use on a puppy? If any?

[Cosmolo]

I am one who does correct for mouthing simply because i think its vital that puppies are taught as early as possible that putting their mouth around a person is a no go. While mouthing is developmental and dogs need to learn bite inhibition- many dogs continue with the behaviour after the developmental phase has finished because thy have learned that it is fun.

You will not diminsh your bond with your puppy by giving corrections IF-

- Your puppy understands what the correction is for

- your puppy understands how to avoid the correction and you teach alternate behaviours

- you catch the puppy doing good behaviours and heavily reward him/ her at these times- life needs to not just be about corrections!

You must have good timing and determine the level of and type of correction that is appropriate as it varies from puppy to puppy. For this reason it would be advantageous to have a trainer show you the best way to resolve the behaviour- particularly given their are children involved.

Are you going to puppy pre school?

[GSDhandler]

i worked though bite inhibition and now koda has just stopped mouthing on her own (at 15 wks) with me at least. the importaint thing is consistency. for most behaviours we give her a command (like off, or out) or an uh uh.

[poodlefan]

Gerda, I suggest you read the puppy raising sections of the training textbook here. You'll find plenty of good advice from folk who've helped people raise thousands of puppies.

Both you and the pup would benefit from a decent puppy school. If you post your location, you might get some good recommendations.

[anthony mazzeri]

My biggest concern is a show of fear sometimes from her, its really upsetting and I don't want her to be afraid of me, but on the same note I can't have her biting the children (or me!).

I'm no expert so take what I say with a grain of salt. I can only go by what didn't work for my recent puppy (basically nothing worked, none of it, he simply grew out of it by himself eventually), and what I've researched for my next puppy. A lot of good puppy behaviour is dependent on the puppy viewing you as leader, which if the puppy is play biting you it means they don't. So the more basic training you do (sit, drop, heel etc), the more this view of you being leader will change, and so the basic training success often comes before the puppy stopping biting success. So when it seems that the puppy simply grows out of it by itself one day, it may very well be because its view of you has changed through that training etc. Which is probably what happened with mine too.

It's also why puppies play bite some people but not others. And why a professional trainer can walk in and the pup will be well behaved and make you look incompetent! The puppy picks up on that 'leadership' confidence thing which comes from experience. Which for most new puppy owners means they need to develop and exude years of confidence and dog leadership experience within approximately two hours of bringing puppy home before it wakes up from its first cute nap. Impossible.

Avoid any aversive techniques, which means the ones which are negative/forceful. Snout grabbing, growling, scruff grabbing, rolling, thumbs down throat, hitting, getting in their face, hard stares etc etc. You must always keep in mind that the puppy is only playing and not being mean at all, so punishing it for playing is a negative thing. They don't understand why you suddenly get aggressive during a game (eg, your own puppy is very sensitive enough to be showing fear at your negative reaction to her wanting to play because she doesn't understand).

The low 'BAHH' you've been using is an aversive because it simulates an aggressive 'danger' growl. Leave that language to other dogs. Use human language. "OUCH" etc. Also, pushing the pup away in any way is just seen as part of the game from the pup's point of view.

The least aversive method is the 'Time Out' recommended by Dr Dunbar and others which is to allow the puppy to bite, but when it bites too hard "OUCH!" or "AH AH!" and leave the room for a minute or two. This should also teach 'bite inhibition' which is a good thing. Basically, it's - we can play and have fun, but if you go too far, it's game over and you can go play by yourself, nyah nyah! And combine that with basic training.

Your daughter can do this. Probably the same as if a boy at school is pulling her hair or teasing her, she would just storm off in a huff and and ignore him for the rest of playtime.

And it takes time too. Persistence and consistence is required as success won't come in just days.

Puppy biting to me is the most major issue for any new puppy owner yet it is covered least well of all the puppy topics. In even the best books it's usually only given fleeting coverage compared to other lesser issues such as house training. It causes new owners frustration (often losing tempers) and despair and it doesn't allow them to bond with their new puppy properly during a very formative period in the puppy's life. It's very difficult to bond emotionally with a snapping alligator! And how it is handled influences how the puppy will develop emotionally as it grows older. What coverage there is consists of about a dozen wildly different and varying techniques, none of which work on all puppies or breeds of differing sensitivities.

[anthony mazzeri]

PS. A clicker training solution is to hold a food treat in your closed hand and allow puppy to try and get it (which requires a pain threshold for puppy teeth!). The instant it gives up and moves its mouth away click! and release the treat. Mouth off = REWARD! And then you eventually add a command word to the action, eg 'Off".

I tried this myself and it worked well, but I couldn't transfer it from hands onto feet. Going for the kill on my ugg boots was much more fun for him than any food treat reward so he ignored it even though he knew 'off" applied to hands. Lesson: don't wear soft chewy ugg boots.

[Cosmolo]

"The least aversive method is the time out"

Anthony- i have to disagree here as it absolutely depends on the dog in question- there are many dogs who would find a time out far more aversive than other types of correction. Not saying it shouldn't be used- but i don't consider it to be the least aversive method in many cases. The other thing that can happen when using a time out (depending on the owner of course!) is that the puppy doesn't learn what to do instead and becomes more frustrated.

The clicker training idea is nota bad one-depending on the owners timing. Need to make sure the dog doesn't learn to mouth and stop to get the click and reward though! Would need to have some pretty strong gloves on though and make sure the puppy doesn't try to do this with the children- asking children to be still and silent while a puppy mouths is extremely difficult.

A puppy mouthing does not always mean the owners leadership is inadequate although it can never hurt to re think your leadership status.

I strongly believe that dogs do not need to mouth people to learn bite inhibition and that much of this learning is done with their mother, littermates and other dogs/ pups early on.

One more thing with regards to corrections if you choose to use them- NEVER should they be used in anger or be accompanied by yelling etc. A correction should be delivered calmly and quickly with the owner able to reward the good behaviour that follows a few minutes later- not still thinking about what the pup did before!

[Tonymc]

I never get too carried away correcting pups.Pups are young,eager and inquisitive.Too much correction will lead to resistance.I prefer distraction with Pups rather than correction.

If one has to use correction,its wise to use disassociation. Tony

[dee lee]

I just want you to know that she will grow out of it.

My dog used to do a lot of playbiting up til she was about 9 months- we ignored it, we ah-ahed, we walked away and eventually she stopped. We also discovered that my father-in-law had been wrestling with her and told him not to. This was a big contributor so make sure you instruct everyone who comes into contact with your dog not to do this.

The jumping is a work in progress but she is getting better.

Edited August 19, 2008 by ✽deelee

[Cosmolo]

Unfortunately, not all dogs grow out of mouthing! I see lots of adult dogs who are still doing it- some who mouth extremely hard as adults and do damage

[Gerda the Schnauzer]

Thanks very much for the thoughtful replies. I think my worst enemy is doing too much varied research before Gerda came home... and didn't quite stick to one method (as each one didn't work very well, or other people in the family couldn't do it properly). Diversion is the only sure fire way of stopping her (and giving daugher a toy to hold in the garden for Gerda to bite instead of her, problem is convincing daughter she has to let Gerda have is sometimes or she will just get really cranky...).

I got the 'bah' thing from a friend who uses Bark busters... must say, didn't seem to be working that well for her either, but the logic seemed good. Might have to drop it then.

Other problem, we use 'ah-ah' with my 10 month old son!!! So its very confusing for them both if they don't know who is in trouble... (though normally for the same thing anyway, they both bite!).

Maybe 'no' is better. Does it have to be like a growl?? The vet told me that one. See what I mean? Too many sources!

Anthony - I think I am considered the leader, she always defers to me, or wants to be with me. I do the 'triangle of temptation' (in a puppy kind of way) to try to reinforce this. My scent is the only one that calms her down, apparently. But that's also why I can't afford for her to be scared, I need her to come when called. She only seems to mouth at me when she needs something and I am keeping her from it (as in, needs a wee but we are both in the play pen trying to be calm and haven't realised, or has had enough of playing and wants a nap). OR I gave her a treat and she wants to know where some more are...! the clicker is something I have considered. But couldn't cope with the treat in the hand trick LOL. Just might help in a general sense with understanding 'down' etc.

Cosmolo - thanks, we reward heavily for good behaviour, and occasionally treat (mostly when doing a conscious bit of training). It works very well for encouraging the good behaviour, but concepts like 'being calm' seem harder to 'explain' (if you know what I mean!).

Removing ourselves, or her, from a situation I find so slow... it seems hard for her to understand what she did wrong. But maybe it all just takes more time. She is a lovely puppy really! She finds being shut out very distressing too, and even gets the shakes etc. I still insist on leaving her till she is quiet, but its so hard to watch, I would never do that to a child (I know, not a child) so it goes against my instincts.

I've seen babies grow out of all sorts of thing without any intervention from us at all... but with puppies I just didn't know, I hope this puppy does

[Cosmolo]

Please don't rely on puppy growing out of it- it is a more difficult problem to fix when the dog has been practicing it for a longer period of time. Are you going to puppy school? Consider a one on one session to show you practically how to fix the problem- it is hard to guess your way through- particularly with mouthing.

Its something i feel very stongly about as i have seen cases where it moves from mouthing to biting and the behaviour goes from annoying to dangerous

[poodlefan]

Dogs like most animals don't grow out of behaviours they find rewarding or at least not aversive.

Don't rely on the assumption that puppy will "grow out of it". As Cosmolo has pointed out, plenty of dogs DON'T. Playful mouthing by a baby puppy and the same dog mouthing you with no bite inhibtion, adult teeth and an adult jaw is no joke.

Did you read the web link I posted?

[Gerda the Schnauzer]

Hiya,

Sorry, forgot to answer that, yes, definitely enrolled in puppy school, starting in about a week I think. Then i was hoping to keep up some form of training after that (do they go to big school? LOL).

I have the web site bookmarked for tomorrow, thanks Poodlefan - just trying to write the darn phd tonight........... never enough reading hours in the day!!! Thanks though, can't wait to have a good look.