Flip Finish And Drop From A Distance

[Guest Tess32]

Do you have to do one or is the around finish fine in trials? Is there an easy way to teach this?

Also I can get him to down from a distance from a sit, but from a stand he always creeps forward or comes and drops....any hints?

Edited August 19, 2008 by Tess32

[MonElite]

whats your reward for the drop?

Toy?

[Guest Tess32]

whats your reward for the drop?

Toy?

Food. From a sit he is doing it on either voice or signal, but I"m really having trouble getting him to drop on voice from a stand if I'm not right up near him. I've tried moving away in tiny increments but he still creeps.

[Kavik]

You can do either finish in trials. I taught the going around finish to my other dogs, but decided to teach the flip finish to Diesel, to be different.

Excuse the camera angle!

I taught by first teaching him to find heel position from different positions, by luring. Then gradually made the angle greater and greater til I started in the front position.

Drop at a distance, do you have a good voice only drop? I have good voice only drop then randomly throw in drops on walks when they aren't expecting it, starting on lead then progressing to off lead. I use either toys or food. Throw toys or walk up to them with food.

ETA: You could also try tying the dog up to teach distance commands, so they can't creep forward. I haven't tried it though.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Kavik

[ness]

Hey Tess,

You can train it on a step or a grooming table so the dog can't creep forward. Also if you place the food behind the dog and go back and reward or throw food behind so the reinforcement is behind the dog that can also help with the creeping.

[MonElite]

throw food behind so the reinforcement is behind the dog that can also help with the creeping.

ness was too quick in replying, but ditto to this

[Guest Tess32]

I thought about tying him up but he might freak out so not sure.

I *could* try it behind a baby gate though!

He's offering me foldback drops left right and center, but he's still having trouble dropping from a stand on voice still, so maybe I should work on that more first before I do the distance drops from stand.

Least we have the drops from sit down well, hehe.

[Guest Tess32]

throw food behind so the reinforcement is behind the dog that can also help with the creeping.

ness was too quick in replying, but ditto to this

K, will try that.

[MonElite]

but he's still having trouble dropping from a stand on voice still, so maybe I should work on that more first before I do the distance drops from stand.

for sure, have it perfect near you before you move away.

You can tie him up if he creeps forward he will self correct. but if he isnt used to being tied up gt him used to it first.

[Vehs]

you can also train drop at a distance using a step (like from your patio down to your grass) or on top of a landing

and even placing a rope/stick in front of them

[Kavik]

The baby gate idea would work.

I just did some training with my guys. Am teaching Kaos the table for agility (with a makeshift something at home). Told him to drop on the table and Diesel who was behind a gate, dropped as well .

[Guest Tess32]

I spoke too soon....last night *so far* he's been dropping on voice alone from a stand. He seems to need to 'sleep on it' and then he wakes up knowing what to do...hehe. Think I will practice that for a week and then start distance again. It's so strange for me to have a dog that doesn't mind repetition either....he's so eager.

Still not sure whether to teach the swing finish then. He's good with the around one...he learnt that quickly and he's constantly offering it so might get confusing if I teach him both?

[Kavik]

You can teach both but I would probably just teach one.

Though at obedience on the weekend this instructor wanted us to finish them from heel position - I was like so I assumed he wanted us to step in front and do a finish, but he wanted us to get them to do the around finish from heel position. Apparently in case they automatically go to heel after the recall, anticipating the finish. I told him I hadn't taught that finish style and he said you'd fail the exercise

I think for me since Diesel really likes the swing finish, and I sometimes do voice only, I am not going to teach the other style. If he finishes through anticipation in a trial, I will just wear it. Never been to another club that trains assuming your dog will make a mistake in the ring and what to do ;)

Don't think I'm going back there, I do some things differently and it seems to be causing problems.

[dogdude]

If you are aiming at trialling, then I would be teaching the flip finish.

The reason being, that the exercise also teaches proper rear end movement for left hand turns, and also faster left about turns. It also allows the dog to remain locked in focus, while the other method allows the dog to be tempted to look past you, while going around.

Just remember trials are won and lost by one point all the time.

When teaching any exercise using food drive, think about where you want your dog move to (or not), then place the reward there. ie: behind you for the recall, behind dog for stationary exercises. Release to the direction that you want to encourage, then the dog has no reason to want to move in any other.

For heeling patterns like ring work, I place the target in a central area close by, to encourage the dog to remain in the close boundarys of a ring.

[Natsu chan]

Which finish you use the flip or normal finish is just personal preference. I've never done flip finishes myself but often do the exercise Kavik mentions. At KCC sometimes you can see the German Shepperd people walking across the park doing this exercise as they go, their dogs have excellent focus. Dogdude is right of course about the possibility of the dog losing focus but ultimately it's up to you.

The thing with distance control is that you're not teaching the dog to drop on command you're teach the dog to drop and stay on command. Which doesn't sound like a big difference but it is.

Think about it when you first start teaching this the dog has usually never done a drop unless it's in the heel position, and when it does a stay it's been taught to hold the position not to be on the alert for a new command. So we're teaching two new things and it needs to be done increments.

I teach it from a sit first. Then intersperse sit stays with dropping from a sit. I teach that by stepping in as I say drop so the dog physically can't move forward. Then praise, of course because aren't they clever and then returning around the back as in normal stays. Once that's concreted from a step away I train the same way from a stand. I only add distance when they will do both a sit stay, a stand stay, or a drop from either on command and only then one step at a time. That way it's clear that it's a stay - unless - I - say - otherwise. Then when you add it to the recall the dog already understands and holds the drop. Everyone does things differently though there's no right way, just play around until you find what works best for you. In my experience though the creeping usually comes from the dog not quite grasping that it's a drop and stay.

Really though you're doing well Noah is only a young lad. For myself if he's happy with the normal finish I wouldn't worry about the flip but it's up to you. Do you want to teach him that? If so go right ahead, there's no reason not to.

Have you started trialling the young man yet?

[Ptolomy]

I only taught the flip finish to Scoota as I felt that if I sent him around behind my back it would give him the opportunity to be distracted as he went around. While the finishes were nice - we would sometimes lose points for him jumping up as he flipped or not quite getting his bottom all the way around

So less than 6 months ago (he is now 4) I decided to teach him the other finish. It took no time at all to teach and now I use this 95% of times in a trial, because he is more accurate and we lose less marks.

I tend to see people who do the flip finish using very exaggerated hand signals which extend all the way backwards, or all the way around their back, so just be aware if you tend to use this finish when trialling :D

[Guest Tess32]

Nope I haven't started trialling yet. He needs a good solid 6 months of distraction work first. He is learning very fast and enjoys it, he hates stopping training. He's only 9 months so I have plenty of time I don't think he's mature enough yet, I want to feel he's reliable before I freak out, hehe. He is SO fun to train though.

Kavik - do you mean he wanted you to just verbally command a finish when the dog was already in heel?

I don't know if I've done it wrong but I taught him 'heel' means to finish, if he's stationary. So if I was standing and he was in heel position, and I said "heel", he would go around and finish. I don't use the verbal 'heel' to mean 'lets move off" as he watches that very intently and I use my arm to signal it..

[Kavik]

Yeah, he wanted us to get the dog to go around us to heel position from heel position (you could probably use a hand signal, he didn't say). Diesel also knows heel means go to heel position (we do lots of stationary work on finding heel position), but he was already there, and I haven't taught the go around finish, so he wouldn't have been able to do it. I have never been asked to do that before.

[Guest Tess32]

yeah seems a strange request, as I'm sure plenty of people just teach flip finish and the dog can't get there if he's already there!

[JulesP]

An interesting exercise Kavik. Without a hand signal Poppy would just shuffle closer. I'll see what she does if I add a hand signal.

I am glad you said that about the flip finish Ptolomy as I can't get a return I am happy with using it. I get a much nicer sit if I send her behind me.

I just changed my drop signal for the distance work today and had better success. I was using a signal out to the side but changed to a more forward signal, so sort of punching down and front. Poppy immediately stopped creeping.