Drive Training Using A Light Or Laser Pointer?

[Luke GSP]

Both my dogs go nuts over chasing flaslight beams or laser pointer dots whenever they have seen them. Would it be possible to use one for drive training? It seems to work as a stimuli and definately gets them past their threshold in to drive and they increase their drive at a fair rate of knots. the problem is I cannot see how they would get drive satisfaction from it as they never actually get hold of it?

As an experiment, I tried the other night with my male moving a torch beam until he was seriously focused and then turned it off. I then issued a command and as soon as he did as instructed I gave him a verbal marker and then turned the torch back on giving him praise at every oppurtunity. He seemed to have a great time and his level of focus was the highhest I have ever seen it. I would be really interested to hear everyones thoughts so please comment and discuss!

Unless of course the light coming back on was drive satisfaction from his point of view? I saw it as

Light appears and starts moving = stimuli

Dog starts to follow the light with eye = drive initiation

dog get faster and more focused starts to pounce and chase light= increasing drive

command issued and light goes off = prompting action

Compliance to action light comes back on and begins moving again= implanting memory of action and gaining drive satisfaction? :p

[Kavik]

Don't do it!

Dogs can get obsessed with moving lights and can have problems . Zoe will chase light reflections/torch lights and will stare at the last place they were, or dig at the place or bark for a while after it goes. We did not encourage it either.

[persephone]

I agree- it can become a dangerous obsession very quickly !! The dogs will seek out moving lights....

[cavNrott]

You may well live to regret the day you ever started doing this with your dogs. Many dogs have ended up with total obsession of lights and shadows. Train the dogs in the proper manner.

[Erny]

Came in to write the same as Kavik, Persephone and CavNrott.

I agree with them. I have borne witness to the severely obsessive behaviours of dogs - behaviour that started out innocently because of owners' dogs 'showing keen interest' towards laser lights.

ETA: Apart from which, your dogs would not receive drive "satisfaction" from the laser light, as it is something they can never catch. All it would do is build never-ending frustration.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Erny

[Luke GSP]

You may well live to regret the day you ever started doing this with your dogs. Many dogs have ended up with total obsession of lights and shadows. Train the dogs in the proper manner.

That's why I am asking the question, My dogs are and always have been obsessed with any small object that moves in the day and any object that moves and is lit at night. My thought and the reason for asking the question is whether or not it is pssible to harness that obsession? Out of interest if you were drive training with a tug for instance why is that "safer" than a moving laser pointer dot? The dog does not go around tugging everything it sees from that day on? Both are being used to raise the drive within the dog and you would always use a trigger for the game to begin such as "play time" and of course a verbal marker for when drive play ends. I am not trying to argue the point just sounding out an idea/thought process? Please before everyone flames me It is something I tried as an experiment whilst outside looking for a ball my son had lost not a training regime that I have implemented. That is why I am asking the question here I would never implement a regime that I had not sounded out thouroughly.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Luke GSP

[Erny]

Out of interest if you were drive training with a tug for instance why is that "safer" than a moving laser pointer dot?

Refer to my "ETA" in my above post, Luke.

No-one here is balling you out for asking. We're just sounding out our urgency to NOT do this and expressing reasons why.

[Luke GSP]

ETA: Apart from which, your dogs would not receive drive "satisfaction" from the laser light, as it is something they can never catch. All it would do is build never-ending frustration.

That's the main problem I was having erny, hence this post. i can see that it can initiate a drive response and raise drive very quickly but I was stumped when it came to satisfaction.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Luke GSP

[Luke GSP]

No-one here is balling you out for asking. We're just sounding out our urgency to NOT do this and expressing reasons why.

Understand that, just wanted to let people know that this was not a regime that had been implemented just an observation of a situation the other night that made me think?

[FNQlder]

I did it with my old dog for years with a lazer pointer and he had no problems with other lights, couldn't figure out how I could harness that though so just used it as him doing exercise while I drank a beer. But I have seen on some tv shows that it can turn into something horrible so I won't risk doing it again.

[dogdude]

Yes, no drive satisfaction.

Do you think the reason that you got a positive response for the experiment may be because your dog has already been trained using motivation by way drive (food or prey)?, and was expecting some kind of satisfaction after completing your commands?

Could the dog of just been "waiting" for a real dose of satisfaction, but just experiencing more drive "building"?

Trust is imperitive in good prey drive training, and I would wonder how long he would continue to work in drive (long term consequences?)

[whatevah]

I would not do this either, I have seen obsessed dogs, that just start chasing shadows and every bit of light. Its not nice to see. With a tug toy its either there or it isn't. The dog knows that I am on the end of it and I am interacting with the dog. I have seen a video where a lady taught a fish in a fish tank to swim through a hoop using a torch light.

[Tonymc]

Luke, like all have said it's a no go. Tony

[jesomil]

Years ago I knew a dog who loved to chase a laser light.

It turned into a big problem with her always looking for movement. Sometimes she would just be sitting there but her eyes would be darting around still. Its almost as if it affected her mentally. It was quite sad to see.

I would never ever do it with my own dogs.

[Tonymc]

Luke,there is a huge difference between waving a light around and using a tug.To satisfy drive the dog need's a capture.The dog cannot capture a light, so there is the dog with drive switched on but no way to satisfy the drive.A Tug will initiate drive but then also gives the dog something physical on which they can make a capture,thus satisfying and releasing drive. Tony

[Kelpie-i]

Ditto, ditto, ditto!!

[Luke GSP]

Luke,there is a huge difference between waving a light around and using a tug.To satisfy drive the dog need's a capture.The dog cannot capture a light, so there is the dog with drive switched on but no way to satisfy the drive.A Tug will initiate drive but then also gives the dog something physical on which they can make a capture,thus satisfying and releasing drive. Tony

Which is why I asked the question, I could see all the other tick boxes being checked for drive initiation and increasing drive but could not see how you could give drive satisfaction.

[gsdog2]

I've just come across this thread and I'm soooooooo glad to read everyone's responses to the use of laser pointers. You've absolutely done the right thing Luke GSP by asking the question first. I am the owner of a dog who suffers from one innocent use of a laser light my OH had bought for work. He had it at home and thought it was very funny watching our Goldie turning himself inside out trying to catch it. I have been told one of the reasons it makes some dogs become obsessive about shadows and reflections after an encounter with laser lights (and similar) is because to a dog everything has a scent (scent being their strongest sense) and the light totally confuses them. This is because a laser light has no smell, can never be caught or mouthed (remember dogs use their mouth when investigating new things). I have banned anything that remotely resembles the laser light and now 3 years on we are coping, but he will revert back to that obsessive puppy if by any chance there happens to be a reflection from someone's watch or similar.

I suggest you keep doing your homework, and keep asking questions as we're all learning from the replies you receive .

[iltby]

I'm another who's glad you asked - I'd never even considered something like this, but it's always good to hear what you should avoid in regards to training.

[Luke GSP]

I'm another who's glad you asked - I'd never even considered something like this, but it's always good to hear what you should avoid in regards to training.

I know. It is so frustrating because it is such an incredible drive stimulus that it is a shame that there are so many negatives (all justified) if only you could harness the focus without it becomeing an out of control osession and also satisfy the drive. Either way, Obviously this was a bad idea but I will continue on my search for a stimuli that I can harness. Thanks for all opinions.