poochmad Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 (edited) Hi all. A similar thread has been posted in the general discussion (what are the differences between lemon or citronella)...however, I also have a question regarding the age of when the collar can be used. Let me give you some background. We bought a pup at age 8 weeks from a great breeder. There were only 2 pups in the litter and when we picked him up he was kept in a cage (large) out the back with his brother. He bonded quite quickly to me and would whine if I walked out of the room even when my husband was with him. We set up a puppy pen for him to be kept when we’re at work. This is situated near the back door, is on tiles, has a gate across (metal) to the house and is approximately 4sqm in size. When we first put him in the pen (with his toys and bed), we were in there too. Straight away as soon as the gate was closed, he started getting distressed and would begin barking. We tried sitting with him, but he would just bark, bark, bark! We also tried to reward him when he was quiet, but he never gave us the chance; as soon as the gate was closed he would start! He would bark non-stop for 30 mins (the only reason he stopped was because the phone rang and I quickly ran back to praise him for ‘being quiet’.) After 4 days, we called in a professional dog trainer who helped us with understanding how the pup was viewing the pen. We then made the pen the best place to be, by cuddling him there, feeding, training, playing – all attention was given in the pen and outside the pen he just got pats (when he sat or dropped). Once the pen was made to be the ‘great place’, I then started to go out of his sight and increasing the time. I was able to get up to 2 mins in the kitchen (around the corner), but if I went up the hallway, he’d start whinging (and considering you need them to be quiet before you returned, it was going to be a long process). On the 4th day we also bought a crate and popped him in there and ignored his whinging. That very night he settled quickly and held his bladder. (We were impressed.) After the 3rd night of him going into the crate, I started to apply the same rules for the pen. Put him in and sat on the floor next to him when he started getting upset. I wanted him to learn that crying did not get a response, but was concerned that he didn’t get distressed like he did in the beginning. The first day I sat outside his cage, the second day stood up and each day gradually moved further away until he didn’t bother whinging and just went straight to his bed. At last after 9 days we were able to leave the house for an hour or 2 and he was fine. BUT. (There’s always a but.) Last night was the first night he was on his own – I had to go back to work and boy, was he distressed when we got home! He was shivering and whining for a whole hour! (Very upsetting for us.) So I went back to the old routine of cuddling him in the pen and then left him there for a short period – no problem. (This was so he didn’t think the pen was a bad place.) This morning however, we put him in the pen (like we had on Monday – with no problems), but he started the non-stop barking again. Due to our neighbour working from home and the fact we leave for work at 6.30am and come home at 6pm, we are looking at getting a lemon collar (instead of a citronella collar) so that he doesn’t stress himself out. Our thoughts are, if he learns not to bark, then his stress level won’t increase (he works himself up), he won’t be stressed (nor the neighbours) and all will be ok. I’m asking you as professional dog trainers whether you agree or disagree with this train of thought. Please note, I have no more leave, so staying home with him and re-training him is out of the option. Any advice you can provide, would be most appreciated. Edited August 12, 2008 by poochmad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 (edited) How old is he now? ETA: If this behavior is anxiety related, I'd be advising against the application of an aversive. What does the trainer say? And more: Is there a "den" for him in the pen or is it open. Just noticed you asked for opinions from "professional dog trainers".. oops, that aint' me. :rolleyes: Edited August 12, 2008 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 (edited) He's 10 weeks. No, there is no den. The crate he sleeps in is up in our room. I haven't yet spoken with the trainer. Edited to change the word breeder to trainer. Edited August 12, 2008 by poochmad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I would definitely not put a collar on a 10 week old puppy. I am a little confused- do you go to him at all when he is crying/ barking? When you are giving him attention in the play pen (to make it his happy place) what is his demeanour like? Can you put his crate in the pen when you leave? Have you ignored him until he has stopped crying/ barking? At 10 weeks he won't be able to hold out forever. Does he spend time in the pen when you are there but in another room? What interactive toys does he have? When he is crying when you are there, you can try to give him a correction but my preference with puppies generally is consistent extinction training which is very hard to start with but 9 times out of 10 rapidly and reliably improves the dogs behaviour in this sort of situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 He's 10 weeks. No, there is no den. The crate he sleeps in is up in our room. I haven't yet spoken with the breeder. Well, as a first step, I'd be looking to put his crate in the pen.. cover it and make it nice and weatherproof and secure. Then I'd be adding a stuffed kong when you leave to give him something to do. He needs to feel safe and secure in there. 10 hours without any kind of interaction is a long time for such a young puppy. You don't have another dog do you? Personally I think you sitting next to the pen where he can't get to you is not a great idea. You need to be very matter of fact about this.. in you go, there's your kong and we'll see you later. Do you let him out when you get home.. did the whinging when you got home happen in the pen or out of it? Perhaps a word in your neighbours ear to explain what's happening may help. I can detect your anxiety about all this through your post.. my guess is that the pup may also be picking it up to some degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 (edited) You are in a tricky situation. (no, not a 'professional here either- but have been around and worked with a lot of dogs/pups) he is only 10 weeks old. In the short time you have had him- he has had a lot of changes of treatment.. free/crate/pen/crate.... You have cuddled him, NOT cuddled him... sat with him/left him... There is a lot in that to confuse a pup... He is much too young to use any sort of anti-bark collar, IMO. What he does need is consistency and firmness. By that ,I mean that if he barks for 30 minutes.... then eventually you go check on him, or speak to him, then IN HIS MIND , it was worth barking for those 30 minutes. NEXT time, it may be 45 minutes!! As long as he is getting intermittent reward he will continue his behaviour :rolleyes: leaving a pup with shelter, a toy, food in a secure environment, and allowing them to sort their emotions out by themselves can be a very noisy business, BUT if done to the bitter end.... can be a very SHORT process Walk him/play with him (without too much human contact) Put him in his pen, with a cosy den, a toy or 3, a bone, NO CUDDLES- and walk outside!! Do NOT go back until all is quiet- whether it is 10 minutes or 3 hours he will stop eventually. When all is quiet- return... but do not go to him immediately . NO FUSS, NO CUDDLES, just let him out-walk outside with him, then after a few minutes, talk to him quietly.... Then back to whatever you normally do around the house... ..... Oh- I agree 10 hrs alone in a pen is a lot for a young puppy..... Edited August 12, 2008 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 How old is he now?ETA: If this behavior is anxiety related, I'd be advising against the application of an aversive. What does the trainer say? And more: Is there a "den" for him in the pen or is it open. Just noticed you asked for opinions from "professional dog trainers".. oops, that aint' me. :rolleyes: Sorry, when I wrote professional trainers, I was thinking of all of you as you all seem to be so experienced on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 How old is he now?ETA: If this behavior is anxiety related, I'd be advising against the application of an aversive. What does the trainer say? And more: Is there a "den" for him in the pen or is it open. Just noticed you asked for opinions from "professional dog trainers".. oops, that aint' me. Sorry, when I wrote professional trainers, I was thinking of all of you as you all seem to be so experienced on this site. You forget how much work puppies are until you're confronted with a new one.. and every one is different. I must be about due for a new pup to send me back to that "oh my God, what was I thinking " place. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 We got him to the stage (Monday morning included) that he would be put in his pen (matter of factly) and he was quiet straight away. He would go straight to his bed. I'm concerned that due to him being stressed last night may have set him back a bit. This morning I gave him a chicken wing and his favourite toy and when I left he was quiet. My concern of course is that he will annoy the neighbours as well as stress himself out. Considering we are now looking at having him inside until he's 9 months old, we need to ensure that everyone (us, the neighbours and the pup) are happy. I understand what you are saying with regards to him barking...however, this is at 5.30am in the morning...and the neighbour's bedroom is directly outside where his pen is... However, I do see that we made some mistakes last night: 1. We didn't leave a light on. 2. We forgot to leave the radio on. 3. We 'soothed' him when we got home - in fact we went to him straight away. Do you think getting another dog would help? The only problem is that the new dog needs to be able to stay inside as well - as our pup won't be allowed outside until he's an adult. Anyone want to baby sit a pup until he's older? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 (edited) having him inside until he's 9 months old, Why do you have to do this? having him indoors , alone for a large part of the day, seems not to be a terribly fulfilling and educational time for a growing puppy ...esp. as he is of a breed originally bred to run and work all day..... Edited August 12, 2008 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 having him inside until he's 9 months old, Why do you have to do this? having him indoors , alone for a large part of the day, seems not to be a terribly fulfilling and educational time for a growing puppy ...esp. as he is of a breed originally bred to run and work all day..... We're concerned about him getting stolen. He's considered a 'rare' breed and where we live (Goulburn) there have been a number of dog thefts, especially purebred puppies. Although most people would think he was a Cocker Spaniel, because of his colouring, he would be very attractive (he looks like a 'chocolate' spaniel). We too, are concerned about this, but once he is fully vaccinated we will be taking him for a morning and evening walk/run (once he's old enough). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 (edited) What are you doing to socialise, stimulate and train him now? Edited August 12, 2008 by Cosmolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 having him inside until he's 9 months old, Why do you have to do this? having him indoors , alone for a large part of the day, seems not to be a terribly fulfilling and educational time for a growing puppy ...esp. as he is of a breed originally bred to run and work all day..... We're concerned about him getting stolen. He's considered a 'rare' breed and where we live (Goulburn) there have been a number of dog thefts, especially purebred puppies. Although most people would think he was a Cocker Spaniel, because of his colouring, he would be very attractive (he looks like a 'chocolate' spaniel). We too, are concerned about this, but once he is fully vaccinated we will be taking him for a morning and evening walk/run (once he's old enough). You could build him a secure run and padlock it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 What are you doing to socialise, stimulate and train him now? Our house is busy with lots of people visiting (each weekend we have people staying) as well as setting up doggy days with dogs that have been vaccinated and have 'soft' natures. Once he's 3 months old we'll be taking him to obedience training for puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 Hi all. Thanks so much to your replies. I ended up speaking with the trainer and he advised (as others already had), that due to his barking being stress related, adding a bark collar into the mix will do more harm than good. He advised that it would stress him out even further. He also advised that we are to ignore him when we get home for a couple of minutes and then speak quietly to him. We also need to put him in the pen a couple of times before we go to bed (so it's a normal thing and so it's not just when we go to work - we were planning on doing this already). He also thought we 'over-compensated' when we got home - which we did and we won't do this either. Lastly, he is seeking an update when I get home tonight and thinks that he may be better today as he may be more used to being on his own. (Since he's been great up until now, he is not concerned that he has regressed too much; that he just needs to get used to being on his own.) I will update here when I get home. Fingers crossed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 OK- fingers crossed for some calm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 OK- fingers crossed for some calm.... Well, when we pulled up there was no noise, not even a peep. I went into the house and he started whimpering (and barking a little), but I just ignored him. For about 5 mins I let him bark and whimper and by the time I went to him he was quiet. I didn't cuddle him or say anything to him or pat him - I just picked him up matter of factly (as I needed to let my husband in) and he was fine. The pen area was also nice and clean (well as clean as could be) and he had done a nice solid poo. (No paw painting this time.) We put him in the pen for an hour and no problems there either - not one squark. We will put him back in the pen before we go to bed so he's comfortable again... I am so, so happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Good news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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