Diy Aglity

[Darkrai]

Just wondering, I want to start doing Agility with Luc (our Afghan), but Alas our closest Aglity Course/club are about 100k's away...

Is there any guide lines to doing Agility???

Height requirements for the objects etc???

[Vickie]

Hi Lelune,

there is a wealth of information on the web to help & some good intro books & DVD's as well.

There is a good 3 book series by Jane Simmons-Moake. It is a bit old now but the concepts are firm & easy to follow. You can usually get a copy on EBay.

How old is Luc? Are planning on agility for fun? or to compete at some point?

It is pretty easy to improvise & make some equipment out of bits & pieces. Most people don't realise, but often the hardest part of agility is not teaching the obstacles but how to get the dog from one obstacle to the next.

There are heaps of things you can & should teach as part of agility that have nothing to do with obstacles.

eg start line stay, Go On (keep moving straight), directional signals/right & left, turning in front of your dog on the ground, turning behind your dog on the ground, an out command. All of this can be taught on the ground & you can use cones or stakes to provide obstacles.

As far as heights for jumps, depends on how old Luc is. In competition, he would be jumping 60 cms, but it's probably better to start off smaller & definitely if he is not yet 18 mths.

Good Luck. We used to have a couple of afghans at our club & they were awesome to watch doing agility & fast too.

[poodlefan]

Vickie:

It is pretty easy to improvise & make some equipment out of bits & pieces. Most people don't realise, but often the hardest part of agility is not teaching the obstacles but how to get the dog from one obstacle to the next.

Amen Vickie, Amen. :rolleyes:

One other point to remember is to teach the dog to do the obstacle independent of your position.. NEVER onlead, never physically coerced over/through it and working towards you being able to have the dog on either side of you, send to the obstacle, recall over it and be in varying places and distances from it.

Keep it fun, forget the idea of being able to keep up with your dog (especially an Afghan) and keep the obstacles low until your dog is jumping with confidence. An Afghan would jump 600mm in competition but you have to work your way up to that.

If that club that's 100 k away is any good, I'd be making the trip. It will save you learning bad habits you'll only have to undo later.

[Ms James]

Lelune, this site sells great books, dvds, and equipment. They're reasonably priced & shipping is quite fast :rolleyes:

[Darkrai]

Thas for the Advice so far

Luc is about 15mths and is more obediant then the girls, only reason I've picked on him lol

At first I'ld only be doing it for fun as Im not sure how he would go off lead more of something to Stimulate Him or them and give me something else to do rather then sit on DOL :rolleyes:

I have a copy of the Agility Reg.s from the Agility Dog Ass. Of Aust and will start reading that soon...

I'll start him on something small and work up to something bigger, or until he gets sick of it lol

[poodlefan]

It's almost impossible to get a dog to jump with it's lead on without inadvertently giving checks or interfering with the obstacle. IF you want to use the lead, you'll definitely have to avoid jumps with any upright higher than the jump bar.

If you have an enclosed area, I'd recommend you lose the lead. Getting jerked around is one of the fastest ways I know to demotivate a dog from jumping. The fact that some dog clubs train with check chains and leads on is very disappointing.

What motivates him? Food? Toys? Far better to teach him to go to a target or toy, reward with that and use that to get him over jumps than to physically steer him.. distance targetting has a lot of uses in agility. :rolleyes:

For such large dogs, the dog walk is often a challenge. Get him to step through the rungs of a ladder and/or run over a plank on the ground.. both are good starts for this obstacle.

Edited August 11, 2008 by poodlefan

[Darkrai]

Poodlefan waht do you mean by the "dog walk"???

I used a lead on Imy when I did basic Agility training??? Never had a problem...

[poodlefan]

Poodlefan waht do you mean by the "dog walk"???

I used a lead on Imy when I did basic Agility training??? Never had a problem...

One of these beasties. It's often the most challenging obstacle for beginner large dogs.

Problem with teaching obstacles on lead (apart from inadvertent corrections) is that it doesn't teach the dog any independence from you. Even at the beginner level, you want to dog to come to you and go away from you over obstacles ASAP. You really don't want to have to hug the obstacle at all.

[laffi]

Poodlefan waht do you mean by the "dog walk"???

I used a lead on Imy when I did basic Agility training??? Never had a problem...

One of these beasties. It's often the most challenging obstacle for beginner large dogs.

Problem with teaching obstacles on lead (apart from inadvertent corrections) is that it doesn't teach the dog any independence from you. Even at the beginner level, you want to dog to come to you and go away from you over obstacles ASAP. You really don't want to have to hug the obstacle at all.

I totally agree

I would never teach my dogs any agility obstacles with the leash on. I spend a lot of time making sure they can work off leash before I start any obstacle training.

[Kavik]

The more agility I do, the more I find I could have done without obstacles as foundation training first

I am in the process of proofing Kaos's send away, modified for agility. This is after our trial on the weekend where he bypassed the last two obstacles to get his toy

I realised that before I address this problem, I need to get his send in general rock solid. I had only done pure straight sends before, and now I realise I have to be able to have him stationary, release to me, and then be able to send in a different direction (if that makes sense probably not ) and THEN I can address the problem of him running to the target unasked (though what I am doing may fix it anyway).

[poodlefan]

The more agility I do, the more I find I could have done without obstacles as foundation training first

Yep, and the most obvious examples of that and sometimes the most glaring training omissions are establishing a reliable wait and a recall from distraction.

You don't jump a horse until it's fully physically mature or until you have established control on the flat. It's something that some members of the agility community could learn from.

Edited August 13, 2008 by poodlefan

[laffi]

The more agility I do, the more I find I could have done without obstacles as foundation training first

Yep, and the most obvious examples of that and sometimes the most glaring training omissions are establishing a reliable wait and a recall from distraction.

You don't jump a horse until it's fully physically mature or until you have established control on the flat. It's something that some members of the agility community could learn from.

I agree. People think that agility is all about the obstacles, but really teaching the obstacles is the easiest part. Handling and distance work are so much harder and have to be based on solid foundations.

[Tassie]

Hey, would you folks like to come and talk to poeple at our club. Some of us are fighting this battle at the moment - on the basis of helping others avoid our mistakes. One of the comebacks we get is that people just want to do it for fun, not to be too serious about it. Maybe so, but ISTM there's still a really valid place for a foundation class/classes before you get to the obstacles. What do other clubs do.

Sorry OP, I've taken this a bit O/T.

[poodlefan]

Hey, would you folks like to come and talk to poeple at our club. Some of us are fighting this battle at the moment - on the basis of helping others avoid our mistakes. One of the comebacks we get is that people just want to do it for fun, not to be too serious about it. Maybe so, but ISTM there's still a really valid place for a foundation class/classes before you get to the obstacles. What do other clubs do.

Sorry OP, I've taken this a bit O/T.

Barb, we get the "but I just want to have fun with my dog" argument too. At CDC we say "that's fine but that doesn't mean that instructors shouldn't insist on same standard of performance from you and your dog.. whether you ever set foot in a ring is up to you". We're not in the business of setting up equipment and providing an instructor so that people can just run their dogs over obstacles as they see fit.

We insist on the same standards of fitness, of control and of performance if they want to be promoted to the next level. The overwhelming majority of our instructors are triallers who take time out of training their own dogs to teach and we reckon that if they're going to put the time and effort into preparing and taking classes, then they have the right to expect reciprocal commitment from class participants.

How you start is how you tend to go on (what dogs learn first they learn best etc) and it isn't fair on beginners to allow them to learn bad habits and have to undo them when they (as the overwhelming majority do) start to think about trialling. I'd not mind $10 for every beginner who said "I just want to have fun with my dog" who's turned into an agility tragic. I should know, I am one. So things like contact strategies are insisted on.. but we still have those who don't get the message.

We are about to trial some "fun and games" classes for those folk who've got the basics and don't want to trial but they'll still have to have good obstacle completion and control over their dogs before they get to that class. We've tried this before but basically most instructors get bored by taking such classes and commitment from participants tends to be sporadic.

ETA: We do start on obstacles at the first level of agility for a couple of reasons.. it's what the punters want and we have a pretty stringent entry test before they're allowed to train.. we test both fitness and control on the flat and that includes a recall from distracton and a more formal one. The overwhelming majority of our starters are club members who've spent six months or more doing basic dog training before they get to agility.

Edited August 13, 2008 by poodlefan

[Vickie]

I guess it depends on what you define as fun.

Dogs out of control are not fun.

Dogs who knock all the bars down are not fun.

Dogs falling off equipment is not fun.

Dogs who take off, interrupt others & won't come when they are called are not fun.

Dogs who do not understand the correct job b/c the handler has no idea what that actually is do not have fun.

Fun for me, is having a dog who understands what I want & tries to do it.

Fun is having a dog go as fast as they can without fear of equipment or punishment.

Fun is succeeding in what I am aiming for and building the skills to meet the challenges the courses offer.

I don't really get the "just want to have fun argument". There are lots of people around who skipped the foundations & will probably never go back & get them. I don't see them having a lot of fun, I see them frustrated & always making excuses for themselves & their dogs.

off my high horse now... rant over.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Vickie

[poodlefan]

Dogs who are fat, unfit or unsound don't tend to be having "fun" either Vickie. And you do see them in some trialling rings.

We get a lot of the "but I just want to have fun with him" arguments when we fail dogs at the fitness test. I make a point of telling owners that asking a dog to do things he's not fit for isn't any fun for the dog in the long run.

Edited August 13, 2008 by poodlefan

[Vickie]

Dogs who are fat, unfit or unsound don't tend to be having "fun" either Vickie. And you do see them in some trialling rings.

yep, far too many unfortunately. I would add "too old" to that list.

[poodlefan]

Dogs who are fat, unfit or unsound don't tend to be having "fun" either Vickie. And you do see them in some trialling rings.

yep, far too many unfortunately. I would add "too old" to that list.

Ah yes. I've asked before whether judges can excuse a dog they consider to be unfit to compete - they should do it. It's hard to watch an old or unsound dog giving it's all to its owner but falling short of the owners expectations.

On the other hand, Veterans at Dapto was a scream.. Your dog has to be retired to compete. The oldies charged (at varying degrees of pace) around a very short course over teeny jumps and lowered contacts (no see saw, no tire, spread or broad and no weavers) to great applause and clearly very pleased with themselves. At the pace Ted went, he'd have better time than when he was competing.

The competion was heavily biased in favour of the oldest dogs (I think a 15 year old won it ) although all the dogs won a prize.. Give me another 5 years and Big Ted will be a serious contender. He had a ball.

Edited August 13, 2008 by poodlefan

[Tassie]

Interesting - thanks ladies - that kind of confirms what the trialling instructors at the club are thinking and trying to get. Now to convince the others ....

Again, sorry, Lelune - I've gone a bit O/T - but you can see that there's quite a discussion about where to start. For specifics, I would recommend having a look at some of the foundation agility stuff which is available - e.g. Susan Garrett's DVDs Crate Games and Success with one jump. Agility is about teamwork, you and the dog responding to each other and respecting each other, so really that is a great starting point - for obedience and other disciplines as well of course. So lots of games which help the dog respond to you and your movements - that can be done without equipment, or with only one simple jump.

And as others have said, look at some of the resources available free on the net. There's also an online (but not free) agility course - haven't tried it - others might have and be able to advise.

[kelpiechick]

Hi Lelune -

If I could only have 3 resources to help me get my dog's training off to the right start they would be :

1. Greg Derrett DVD : Agility Foundation Training (The Bible!)

2. Susan Salo DVD : Jump Foundation Training

3. Kim Collins book : From the Ground Up (covers beginning flatwork with no obstacles, building up to obstacle training, then simple sequencing - gives an excellent progression and has lots of explanations of the theory as she is one of Susan Garrett's instructors at 'Say Yes')

Hi Tassie - (apologies for going OT again)

We went through the same thing a couple of years back at club. We introduced a Foundation class with very few obstacles (main focus was supposed to be flatwork, teaching dog to play with you, using reinforcement effectively, plus tunnel, very wide channel weaves, perches, ladder, wobble board, plank,cavaletti and jump bumps and uprights)

We also introduced an evening where they came without dogs and we talked about what we would be teaching, stressing why they needed to do all this before they got on the (lowered) obstacles in the next class. My explanation was always that even if they were just doing it 'for fun' there may be someone else in class with higher ambitions and I owed it to them to teach all the flatwork first - not to mention how it would improve their relationship with their dog at home, blah, blah, cha, cha - you get the picture. Plus they got an information pack on CD with club rules, some training exercises to do at home, agility resources, etc.

Well, 2 and a bit years on ........ we still get some complaining how boring it is and whinging that they don't get promoted but thankfully they are a minority and usually drop out anyway, no loss. We have some very good(potentially) dogs and handlers who have come up through this system and are doing really well.

The worst thing is that some instructors still don't follow the class outline - some don't teach any flatwork even though we had a couple of workshops demonstrating all the exercises, and I seem to be the only 'bunny' putting any emphasis on play and relationship.

(In the next class up which is teaching obstacles and beginning jump sequencing, we had an instructor teaching them serpentine last week !!!!!!!!!!! )

I don't know what the answer is - we are very short of instructors and don't want to lose any more but some seem to be stuck in a particular way of teaching and don't want to change - very frustrating. And confusing for students I'm sure.