Weimaraner With Bad Skin

[harold]

Hi

First post here so go gentle with me

We have a 4 year old desexed male Wei (1/2 long hair, 1/2 short). He has recently developed bad skin which has been diagnosed as Atopic Dermatitis. To cut a very long story short, he is on a 1/2 steroid pill twice a week, one omega 3 capsule daily, 1/2 an anti-histamine daily. Raw chicken on the bone for brekky and Supercoat Sensitive with Natures gift (wet) at night. This seems to be working but his skin is by no means perfect. We previously had him on Eukanuba Large Breed (which seems to make his skin bad). We have also removed him from his old grassy walking park - we think he reacted to the grasses there.

Reading some threads here, I'm overwhelmed by the choice of foods that are available (that I had no idea were available).

I know there's not going to be one simple, single solution to resolve his skin issues, but any thoughts on what we are doing and what we could do would be very welcome.

Thanks

Olly's dad

[Kajtek]

You may want to have a look at Megaderm (omega 3&6) and you can get it online eg vet-n-pet direct. We are renovating and one of my girls developed allergy to cement render dust. It really worked for her.

Good luck.

[Nekhbet]

firstly I dont think supercoat is enough.

Royal Canin has hypoallergenic vet only dry foods or even the large breed adult (My rotty too has skin that looks disgusting and its the only dry food he can eat)

Keep up with the chicken, carcasses, turkey bits even try rabbit if you know someone that hunts

Megaderm

are you using phenergen or a vet prescription one?

if its localised there is a spray called COrtavance that you can try instead of tablets

use a specialised shampoo such as EpiSooth, there is also a leave on conditioner called Resi-Soothe that you dont need to wash the dog to apply

[harold]

thanks for the replys

we are using a human omega 3 capsule

the steroids are vet only - macrolone

the anti-histamines - polaramine

we tried shampoos etc...but they did nothing and even made him worse

do you think we should stick with the current food and supplement with a megaderm liquid type thing added or change to a higher omega 3/6 dry food?

or another combination?

[Kajtek]

You will need to find 'the magic food' combination for your dog.

My girl is on Holistic Eagle Pack for sensitive skin dry food(sardines & rice variety) + lean raw beef & I supplement with Megaderm. I do not give her any other supplements. Works wonders for us.

Also, for an agry/infected patch of skin, Neotopic cream seems to work best. You can get from the vet.

Good luck.

[Golden Rules]

Loads of great responses here harold, just a matter of trial and error as to what works best for your dog.

Supercoat - the name itself implies wonderful things but that's just good marketing IMO. There are better quality foods for sensitive skin as others have suggested.

With any skin/allergy issues, most commonly it is a suppressed or compromised immune system that is the cause. Unfortunately steroids assist greatly with the symptoms but further compromise the immune system. So if it were me, I would be looking at the best quality food for skin sensitive dogs but preferably feeding as much raw as possible.

Some dogs react to certain meats eg Beef and Lamb. Chicken and Turkey are generally low allergy foods, so if you keep feedng dry, check to see what is in the food.

I would also increase the Omega tabs to 3 a day for a larger dog.

I was given a new 'miracle' supplement today by my 'conservative' vet - she gave it to me free to try but said it has had excellent results in America.

It is called Duralactin (an immuno-nutritional aid for management of chronic inflammatory conditions in dogs) and the active ingredient is MicroLactin (dried milk protein derived from hyperimmunized cows).

I don't know if this is commonly available here in Australia yet but might be worth googling to see if there is a similar product available here, or maybe get some ordered from the States.

I obviously can't vouch for it's effectiveness as we only started it today.

Another treatment for topical application is Manuka Oil and Honey Antiseptic Gel (made by Living Nature in NZ) - I can vouch for this product as my dog had an awful hotspot under his tail earlier this week and has completely disappeared after 2 days of applying this gel twice a day. Miracle stuff!

Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide to try.

[anthony mazzeri]

We have also removed him from his old grassy walking park - we think he reacted to the grasses there.

If you think Olly is reacting to grasses, then logically it may be worth trying removing the grass-related cereal/grains from his food as well. Orijen kibble has no grain in it whatsoever and a few Weimaraner owners on here have switched their pooches over to it.

[poodlefan]

Did the vet check his thyroid levels?

[harold]

anthony - like your thinking.... will give it a try

no thyroid checks - what would an overactive/underactive thyroid mean re: skin problems?

found http://www.naturalpetstore.com.au/d/OA-135...ult-dog-13.5kg/

which has a massive 42% protein

and

http://www.naturalpetstore.com.au/d/E22123...y---13.6kg-bag/

which has the more normal 22%

i know it's horses for courses, but which (if either) would you have a go with?

thanks AGAIN

Edited August 9, 2008 by harold

[anthony mazzeri]

I looked up the ingredients in the food you've tried, and Eukanuba Large breed has corn, sorghum and barley and that's the one you've noticed makes Olly worse.

Supercoat Sensitive on the other hand only has rice which is why it may seem to be working, but Natures Gift has wheat which may be doing the same as the Eukanuba, so it could be a matter of two steps forward one step back when feeding both. So it might be worth trying just stop feeding the Natures Gift altogether while waiting for the Orijen to arrive and see if there's any improvement.

Anna's suggestion of Holistic Eagle Pack for sensitive skin dry food (sardines & rice variety) would be the same as the Supercoat Sensitive. So there's a strong hint there from the manufacturers - both are for sensitive skin and both only use rice instead of corn/sorghum/wheat/barley.

Good luck, let us know if a change in diet actually helps as it could help other people with the same problem.

Edit: Just followed your links and see the Eagle Pack actually has some oatmeal as well. I'd go with the Orijen and just remove any and all cereal/grain altogether. PS. You actually feed much less of Orijen so the protein balances out. Follow the feeding instructions on the pack as a starting point.

Edited August 9, 2008 by anthony mazzeri

[rizenstar]

We actually can't use Hills or Royal Canin on our Amstaff boy - he gets the runs something terrible. We feed Supercoat Sensitive like yourself and we swear by it - if Luca has anything else he either gets the runs or breaks out again. We feed with the dry food raw beef/chicken mince and rice, he also gets evening primrose capsuals, fish oil capsuals, ACV, Livamol and sardines twice a week. We also wash in a Neem Oil shampoo(its green) that we get from our local produce store, as some of the others are a bit too strong for him and give him the itches. So thats what works for us and as everyone else has said - finding that happy medium is the hard part, once you work it out its easy from there

[poodlefan]

anthony - like your thinking.... will give it a try

no thyroid checks - what would an overactive/underactive thyroid mean re: skin problems?

According to Dr Jean Dodd's paper on thyroid issues, the following skin issues can be sympomatic of hypothyroidism. Thyroid issues are not unknown in Weims. It probably wouldn't hurt to get a baseline anyway.

Dermatologic Diseases

dry, scaly skin and dandruff chronic offensive skin odor

coarse, dull coat bilaterally symmetrical hair loss

"rat tail"; "puppy coat" seborrhea with greasy skin

hyperpigmentation seborrhea with dry skin

pyoderma or skin infections myxedema

[Bully]

anthony - like your thinking.... will give it a try

no thyroid checks - what would an overactive/underactive thyroid mean re: skin problems?

According to Dr Jean Dodd's paper on thyroid issues, the following skin issues can be sympomatic of hypothyroidism. Thyroid issues are not unknown in Weims. It probably wouldn't hurt to get a baseline anyway.

Dermatologic Diseases

dry, scaly skin and dandruff chronic offensive skin odor

coarse, dull coat bilaterally symmetrical hair loss

"rat tail"; "puppy coat" seborrhea with greasy skin

hyperpigmentation seborrhea with dry skin

pyoderma or skin infections myxedema

I agree with getting the thyroid checked. I'd also be looking at a raw diet and eliminating all grains and cereals as they are one of the most common causes of allergies. A dog's digestive system is not designed to eat cereal.

Another thing causing the skin problems can be vaccinations. From memory I think that Weimaraners can have problems with vaccinations.

I'm not on my computer or I'd sent a few web links, but if you "Google" Dr Jean Dodds you will get a lot of information on thyroid and vaccination issues.

[InspectorRex]

Hi Harold

Was the Atopic Dermatitis officially diagnosed by a Veterinary Dermatologist by doing intra-dermal skin testing? You will need a referral from your normal Vet to see the Dermatologist. Hopefully your normal Vet will have done full bloods to rule out any other underlying health issues such as thyroid issues.

This is the only way to actually confirm that it is Atopic Dermatitis( I know as I have had a dog with it).

This is the very first thing that needs to be done so that it can be ascertained as to what exactly your dog is reacting to, eg air-borne pollens, grasses etc.

Once this has been done then the Veterinary Dermatologist can then advise you as to what treatment regime may suit your dog, be it course of allergy vaccines, dietary changes etc.

If you want any further info please feel free to PM me.

Wei's do suffer from Immune -system related problems so it would be worth your while contacting an established Wei breeder, who tests from the Immune system disorder, and seeking some advice and guidance there.

[zayda_asher]

Was the Atopic Dermatitis officially diagnosed by a Veterinary Dermatologist by doing intra-dermal skin testing? You will need a referral from your normal Vet to see the Dermatologist. Hopefully your normal Vet will have done full bloods to rule out any other underlying health issues such as thyroid issues.

This is the only way to actually confirm that it is Atopic Dermatitis( I know as I have had a dog with it).

This is the very first thing that needs to be done so that it can be ascertained as to what exactly your dog is reacting to, eg air-borne pollens, grasses etc.

Once this has been done then the Veterinary Dermatologist can then advise you as to what treatment regime may suit your dog, be it course of allergy vaccines, dietary changes etc.

Yep, I couldn't agree more... best option is to go see a Vet Derm and get a proper diagnosis... It may not *just* be atopic allergies either, could be food, insects, contact etc. A Vet Derm will help you determine all this, or if it is allergies at all (as said could be thyroid or other things too)... I have two allergic dogs and you have to know what the dog is actually allergic too or you can make them worse, for example my boy is allergic to Tea Tree, so using anything with Tea Tree (which many skin care products do) is a big no-no as it will actually make him have a reaction! Vet Derms are specialists and know much more than your GP vet on this issue... For example a dog your size should most likely be on more than half an antihistamine and one fish oil cap a day (as a comparison my 31kilo and 23kilo dogs get 4 fish oil caps and 1 EPO cap a day and 2 antihistamines a day)... The other nice thing about knowing what your dog is allergic to and clearing out the environment etc. is that you can often ditch the steroids in the long term (i.e.: daily use) and only use them as "the big guns" if they do have a big flare. And you can also look at other therapies like ASIT (allergen specific immuno therapy)

If you do a search of the health forum for "allergies" and my user name "zayda_asher" you should find lots of allergy threads with info...

Good luck

Edited August 10, 2008 by zayda_asher

[stormie]

Agree with the above two posts. It could just as easily be a food allergy, so I'd recommend a referral to a dermatologist to find out exactly what it is. No point switching to a raw diet if the meat you feed is the culprit.

The only way you can actually diagnose atopy is by ruling out everything else.

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Mega Oil has been amazing for my boy, I can not recommend it more highly and after two bottles there was a dramatic difference not only in itching, but coat quality too!

Here are the ingredients

Flaxseed Oil, Soybean Seed Oil, Evening Primrose Oil, Borage Oil (15ml GLA) Safflower Seed Oil, Sunflower Seed Oil, Sesame Seed Oil, Pumpkinseed Oil.

If you read up about Evening Primrose and Borage Oils you will see the 15Mm GLA is excellent. Yes it is a little on the expensive side, I now get mine from a health food shop for $27 for 500 mls and give 50ml daily. Also use Dr Bruce's Health Booster.

[SparkyTansy]

I agree 100% with Stormie... a lot of vets don't generally like to touch skin issues because they are so hard to diagnose... it is possible that your vet diagnosed atopic dermatitis because it is the most common of all the allergies out there... simply sticking him on a steroid and changing his diet probably isn't enough, if you really want to get to the root of the problem, as opposed to just keeping it at bay with a steroid.

I would get a referral to a dermatologist. you could go down the road of intradermal skin testing, but you want to rule out food allergy and contact allergy first. A derm vet can guide you through this process.

A good quality diet with lots of omega 3 can help, but a diet change isn't going to 'cure' atopy... atopy is an inhalant allergy which, just like in humans, can be combatted with antihistamine, or in bad cases, desensitisation. I believe the success rate of desensitisation is about 2/3, but this may have changed.

I haven't really seen atopy much in Weims... it certainly isn't a breed that springs to mind when you think of those breeds most affected with skin issues. Yes, they do have immune issues, which they think has been identified by overuse of vaccination... breeders are working hard to make their puppy buyers aware of this issue, as well as trying to identify it (i don't think there is a test for it yet, but please correct me if i am wrong)

I would also ask about thyroid testing as well.

Welcome, btw, to DOL. You should come and join us in the WEimaraner thread in the breed sub section! we love seeing new pics of weimies. :p

[harold]

thanks so much for all the replies

we now have a better idea of what may be causing it and we have an action plan

will report back soon

[harold]

our Wei has been on Orijen for about 3 weeks now and we have noticed a HUGE improvement in his skin and stools

he gets oil capsules and antihistamines daily as well, but the change to a non-grain food (plus raw chicken daily) has worked for him

we will try to ween him off the additives over the coming months

just one question - we get our Orijen at $110 per 13.6kg bag which I believe is the RRP

why do so many stores have the same bag at $120? MORE than the RRP ?????

That's just greedy i think....would you see two different car dealers showing different prices....of course....but would one of them be offering cars at MORE THAN the RRP? I think not....

Don't ever pay more than RRP - take your money elsewhere