Help For My Workmate

[oceanaussi]

Hi there,

I've just spoken to my workmate. She's got 2 rescues - a GSP and a Bull Arab who she rescued from an environment where they were beaten. She had them for a while now and never experienced any issues. A couple of months ago she and her husband broke up. She moved into a new place and since then her dogs have gone feral. First the killed the cat from an old lady next door (cat was in my workmate's yard). The old lady's daughter just moved out a week before and the old lady loved her cat, she had a stroke 2 days later and died. Then they killed the little dog from next door. Appearently the digged a whole underneath the fence and killed it. There're 2 larger dogs on the property (the one with the little dog) as well.

My workmate asked me if this sort of behaviour is normal. Well, I told her, I don't think so. I assume the dogs have issues and recommended a behaviourist. She also mentioned that they much more aggressive on lead. Obviously my workmate is stressed going thru the divorce and I assume that her dogs sense this and want to protect her. But how can I tell her to be a bit stronger for her dogs sake? Any advice? Thanks!

[SueM]

What did the people say from next door when their dog was killed, they should be declared dangerous if they are going around killing other peoples pets.

[Silvawilow]

Did the dogs dig into the neighbours yard or did the neighbours little dog dig into your friends yard?

Sorry pregnant brain and just need to clarify so I can get situation

[Tonymc]

firstly time and time again,people seem to overlook,forget or not even realise Dogs are predators.Cats to many Dogs are prey, that is the way of nature and a dogs instinct.Too many People seem to overlook that we must manage a dog's natural instinct and give him or her a safe outlet.Also from your post,it seem's the cat entered the dog's territory.

The question I have about the small dog is, did it come under the fence into the two dog's territory?

How can you get your friend to be stronger, you ask?The answer to that lies well away from the dog's.Your friend need's to deal with the stress and issues of her personal life and then she may be able to operate in a much clearer and stronger manner within herself.This along with your friend having a look at her leadership, will benefit the dog's.

I would really strongly suggest, that your friend has a knowledgeable trainer look at the situation.When people are stressed,their objectivity of any situation can be very low. Tony

[oceanaussi]

Thanks guys! I must say, she's really just a workmate and I don't know her very well, so I don't know the dogs or how she's privately.

I do understand the cat thing. Don't think a cat would survive coming into my yard either. But obviously it must have been too much for this poor old lady so she died (the cat's owner I mean).

Regarding the little dog: her dogs digged underneath the fence and killed it. It was found dead by the neighbours child in their yard (the little dog's yard that is). Appearently the couple living there have 9 kids, a lot of them are forstered as they're terminal ill. They didn't mind to much that their dog was killed as they used it as an example to teach the children how to deal with loss...Well, no comments on that one.

My workmate is scared that it will happen again and people might not be that understanding. I strongly believe that her dogs sense her stress and maybe even react in a protective way. I did recommend a behaviourist but i think it needs to be one with dual qualifications - for people and dogs. But that's my opinion and I wanted to know what some more experienced people think.

[Trisven13]

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but any dog that can and will dig under a fence and kill another dog should not still be breathing. It sure wouldn't be if it lived in my yard. I have no tolerance for dog aggression - working in rescue I see just how many fabulous dogs there are out there being put to sleep every week who have no dog aggression issues at all.

[Animal House]

I second that Trisven.

Any dog(s) that dug under my fence to kill anything (dog or cat) wouldnt be breathing for much longer.

Dangerous dogs, irresponsible owner.

Cant say too much for the "neighbours" either......they let this situation slide by teaching the kids about death? ;)

[persephone]

Whilst I am sorry for the workmate-recovering from personal difficulties, moving, having two large dogs to care for... These dogs have deliberately sought out and killed a dog.

Their perceived increased aggressiveness onlead is, most probably, their reaction to her current handling of them...

I accept the dogs are stressed,and also realise that each of the dogs,were they seperate may not have done this.

However ,'pack' dictates differently- and so 'perhaps' a fence fight ended fatally.

Where to?

You were wise to suggest a behaviouralist.... and I do think good ,experienced ones ARE wise to the ways of humans ,as well as dogs.!! They have to be ,to be successful in their work!

I hope that she is helped to a decision she can live with..

[georgina west]

she certainly needs to look into a safer houseing situation for these dogs!!!so other pets in the neighbour hood dont get hert or killed!

i wouldnt trust the dogs now!if they dug under the fence just to kill a pooch then that is scarey!

and for the owners of the dead dog to just go ahhh teach the kids a leason well then whats with them?they should have put their foot down and said im not dealing with this what if it happens and its one of the kids!!!

something needs to be done quick before these dogs kill again

dont forget these dogs have killed twice plus caused the dead of an old lady(due to losing her cat)so something needs to be done

Edited August 6, 2008 by georgina west

[JulesP]

The dog's behaviour may be totally unrelated to their owners separation. It may be that they have never had the opportunity before to kill anything. It may also be more related to a change in their environment.

A behaviourist is obviously the way to go but she might not be able to afford this due to the split.

The last thing she needs btw is a work colleague telling her to toughen up. You don't know what she is like with the dogs or why they are acting like this. I really feel for her having to deal with the dogs behaving badly on top of everything else.

Until she can see someone about their behaviour I would suggest that they are muzzled in public. Would hate to see them get away from her and kill another pet.

[Just Midol]

Meh, I'd just fix the fences and see a behaviourist?

I'd never kill a dog with dog aggression. I don't like taking the easy way out. I wouldn't even kill my dog for human aggression - I'd manage it.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Lord Midol

[dee lee]

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but any dog that can and will dig under a fence and kill another dog should not still be breathing. It sure wouldn't be if it lived in my yard. I have no tolerance for dog aggression - working in rescue I see just how many fabulous dogs there are out there being put to sleep every week who have no dog aggression issues at all.

I completely agree.

[poodlefan]

Meh, I'd just fix the fences and see a behaviourist?

I'd never kill a dog with dog aggression. I don't like taking the easy way out. I wouldn't even kill my dog for human aggression - I'd manage it.

I'd never PTS a dog aggressive dog without seeking the professional help you suggest Midol.

Never say never about not euthanaising dog aggressive dogs though.. some are beyond the capacity of almost any owners to manage and beyond help for their behaviour.

However, the worst these dog's owners can do is nothing. They have form, they've killed twice and without changes, its not if they'll do it again but when.

Edited August 7, 2008 by poodlefan

[oceanaussi]

Ok, seems like most agree with me of getting a behaviourist. Now I just gotta find one. I think pts the dogs just after a seperation might be even worse for her. I was thinking too that they might have not have a 'chance' to kill before and now where she's in suburbia it shows. And no, I'm not telling her to toughen up also this is what I'm thinking. But then again this is me and like I said before I have no idea what she's like privately. She was thinking of putting them in the kennel until she has settled down but I don't think this would be a good idea.

[poodlefan]

Ok, seems like most agree with me of getting a behaviourist. Now I just gotta find one. I think pts the dogs just after a seperation might be even worse for her. I was thinking too that they might have not have a 'chance' to kill before and now where she's in suburbia it shows. And no, I'm not telling her to toughen up also this is what I'm thinking. But then again this is me and like I said before I have no idea what she's like privately. She was thinking of putting them in the kennel until she has settled down but I don't think this would be a good idea.

If she's honest about their behaviour OA, she might have difficulty finding a kennel that will take them.

What are their ages, sexes and desexing status? It does sound to me like these dogs lack leadership, appropriate stimulation and self control.

Where is your friend.. do you think she's up to doing some hard yards with her dogs?

[Trisven13]

If she puts them in boarding she shouldn't do so without ensuring the boarding kennel are aware they have killed a dog before.

[oceanaussi]

If she's honest about their behaviour OA, she might have difficulty finding a kennel that will take them.

What are their ages, sexes and desexing status? It does sound to me like these dogs lack leadership, appropriate stimulation and self control.

Where is your friend.. do you think she's up to doing some hard yards with her dogs?

That's true too! They're around 4 years old (rescues not 100% sure), she had them for about 3 years and they're a male and a femal both desexed. She's pretty sure that she doesn't have a leadership issue as they're fine as soon as she tells them of. She's here in Brisbane and I think she will put some work into her dogs as she loves them dearly and I don't think she wants to loose them as well.

[poodlefan]

If she's honest about their behaviour OA, she might have difficulty finding a kennel that will take them.

What are their ages, sexes and desexing status? It does sound to me like these dogs lack leadership, appropriate stimulation and self control.

Where is your friend.. do you think she's up to doing some hard yards with her dogs?

That's true too! They're around 4 years old (rescues not 100% sure), she had them for about 3 years and they're a male and a femal both desexed. She's pretty sure that she doesn't have a leadership issue as they're fine as soon as she tells them of. She's here in Brisbane and I think she will put some work into her dogs as she loves them dearly and I don't think she wants to loose them as well.

If they are behaving aggressively onlead, I'd probably suggest leadership IS an issue. There have been threads about good behaviouralists in Brisbane recommendations made. From memory, Monah has sought some assistance with one of her dogs and was happy .. you could PM her.

[Kelpie-i]

These 2 dogs clearly acted on pack instinct, nothing more, nothing less. Let's stop jumping up and down and recognise that ALL dogs have the potential to kill. They are an animal first and foremost with an in-bred instinct to hunt. Unfortunately we may not like to hear this, but it's the way it is.

Small dogs, cats, rats, they can all be fair game to some dogs, especially when there are two dogs razzing each other up. Is digging under a fence to get to the "prey" item normal dog behaviour, heck yes, especially if this behaviour is coaxed on by pack mentality! This behaviour is as normal as you and I taking a shower every morning. Is it acceptable in society, no it's not, but that's not a reason to give these dogs the death sentence.

These dogs have had 2 successful 'hunts' and will do this again, therefore separating the 2 dogs and re-building the lost bond between owner and each dog individually is the first priority. These guys are now a team and will continue to work as a team, unless a leader can step in and stop the behaviour pattern.

My recommendation is to fix the fences so that escape is not possible, then I would emply the services of an extremely good trainer/behaviourist and work through the problems of leadership and training.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Kelpie-i

[hortfurball]

Just curious...if there were two other larger dogs living with the small dog, what were they doing when the two dogs dug under the fence and killed their companion?

Why was there no fight between the larger resident dogs and the interlopers?

Did the two resident dogs join in the kill through pack mentality?

Did the two interlopers even get under the fence? Two pretty large dogs - would have to have been one heck of a hole!

Not saying that these two dogs were innocent but it IS possible. I'd want proof that they actually made it under the fence and were the killers before I decided anything.

I only mention this because the OP said 'apparently' the dogs had dug under the fence.