Sick Puppy Refund?

[:ange:]

I have a VERY touchy question which I would like to remain anonymous about (ie where the pup came from, what breeder, what litter, parents etc). I have been very supported by the breeder, she has been wonderful.

We recieved our baby girl back in March we have had a fair few health problems since then:

She arrived with 2 ticks on her (scared the crap outta me!!)

The breeder told me that the rest of the litter had contracted coccidia and to get her treated promptly (as above)

She also came with a hernia (not too worried about this)

all of these things I wasn't worried about as I was just over the moon to have my baby

At 4.5 months she got quite sick with joint pain, and was diagnosed with hypertrophic osteodystrophy (HOD) which this time cost us a bit. The vet told us to let the breeder know as it was genetic. We did. She has had 2 more episodes of this since, which has progressively got worse each episode.

A 5 months we noticed that she started bleeding frank blood (very very red) when she urinates. This problem is ongoing and has cost us almost $2000 to date. The likely cause (not 100%) is one of her kidney's has something wrong with it and will most likely to be removed at a later time if it has not cleared up. She is 7 months now and nothing has cleared it up.

She was so sick, I was frightened she was going to have to be pts.

About a fortnight ago, I did ask the breeder for a refund through email and I have not had a response since (which I took for a no?)

We are still up to our necks in vet debt.. we never thought that we would be paying this much for our puppy in the first few months of owning her. The breeder did offer us a new pup from another litter, and that our girl should come back to her (but I fear they would just put her down). We said no to this offer, but instead asked for the money.

What do you think?

[Norskgra]

I am sorry you have had these problems with your pup.

According to the law, the pup is classified as goods and you would only be entitled to a refund if you returned the goods, i.e. the pup. The breeder did offer a new pup in return for the pup you have. I think that is fair.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Norskgra

[TerraNik]

Did you have a contract with the breeder in the event that something this might happen? Any health guarantee?

[:ange:]

Hmm.. ok.

There is now way that I would send my girl back. In the very short time I have had her she has become my best friend - we do everything together. It would break my heart to see her go only to be replaced by another puppy.

I hope you can understand that direction?

thankyou for clarifying the law, your obviously a breeder and know your stuff.

I would have just thought that the right thing to do would be at least help a small portion of the costs. Even if it is not a full refund.

[:ange:]

Did you have a contract with the breeder in the event that something this might happen? Any health guarantee?

I had not even heard of health contract/guarantees until I started looking into if breeders DO refund money. So no.

The thing is they are a very reputable breeder, I know several other people with dogs from previous litters and they have had no problems. I think my girl is just a one off.

[Bellatrix]

That is really unfortunate

When i got lucy just over 2 weeks ago now, she got very sick after 4 days, turned out to be gastro but required her to stay at the vet for 2 days on a drip, they did xrays, bloods etc... cost me just as much as she did! Vet bills are not cheap! But she was worth it, shes all better now. But in your case, it seems never ending. The breeder did offer you another pup which i think is fair but i do understand your reasoning behind sending her back to the breeder, especially because you have formed a bond with her.

However, in all honesty, no matter how nice people are, doesnt mean they did nothing wrong. If i were you i would have been concerned about all these little ailments... a breeder would know what is genetic also...just seems a little bit suss to me.

I do hope your darling gets better, there is nothing worse than seeing a pup go through these unwell times

All the best

[Diva]

I'm sorry to hear you've had such a bad run and your pup is still not entirely well. Arriving with ticks horrifies me, I had a pup arrive by plane with fleas, which was bad enough. I doubt though that the breeder is obligated by law to refund your purchase price. I'm no expert but you'd probably have to return her which is not (very understandably) for you an option, or be able to prove the breeder knew of her problems when she sold her, or did not carry out health tests on the parents which could reasonably be expected to be carried out for that breed - which might be grounds for a legal case but I'd imagine it would be difficult.

Ethically, I'd like to think the breeder would refund based on your vet records, if the vet is clear that it's nothing you've done that has caused such serious health issues at such a young age. But I expect I'm being optimistic.

I hope your girl recovers well.

[LoremIpsum]

I am very sorry to hear that your baby has been so ill, and of course we all understand that you can't give your pup back now. You love her. She looks completely adorable, by the way. I'm sure you're giving her a wonderful life, despite her health problems.

However I concur with what's been said about your breeder's responsibilities. I think Diva has hit it on the head. The breeder has was legally and ethically right to offer you another pup. But unless the breeder did anything to cause your dog's health problems, or failed to advise you that she may have future health problems, her health is ultimately your responsibility. That's what I reckon, anyway.

If I were the breeder and could afford it, I'd give you the refund, but it would be as a gesture of goodwill rather than because of a legal obligation.

Either way, my heart goes out to you. It must be awful to see your beloved puppy in ill-health. And financial stress is terribly difficult to. (We have little to spare ourselves, and we'll be up the proverbial if anything goes majorly wrong.) I hope she grows out of her sickliness and you enjoy a long life with your gorgeous creature.

[Paptacular!]

to you.

I know exactly what you're going through.

I think you are only entitled to a refund if you return the pup, I'm sorry to tell you.

My advice is to go and pay a visit to Consumer Affairs, or Legal Aid and find out for sure what is likely to happen in this situation.

[Dogsfevr]

HOD is a common disease of rapidly growing, large and giant breed purebreed dogs. In a recent study looking at breed predilection for developmental bone diseases, breeds reported at increased risk included the Great Dane (190 x increased risk for HOD compared to mixed-breed dogs), the Boxer (18.4 x), the Irish Setter (14.3 x), and the German Shepherd (9.5 x) [Munjar, 1998]. The Weimaraner breed featured prominently, with a 21 fold greater risk of HOD occurrence compared to mixed breed dogs. An increased risk for HOD in the Weimaraner has been suggested in the veterinary literature, with a litter of four HOD-affected Weimaraner puppies (Grondelen, 1976), and a different litter of four affected puppies (Woodward, 1982) reported.

The CCAH data base currently has 30 Weimaraner puppies diagnosed with HOD. Most of these puppies have presented to veterinarians for acute onset of fever, with swelling present at growth zones of the long bones. Loss of appetite and lameness were present in all these dogs. Males and females were equally affected, and the age of onset of the disease is typically 8-16 weeks of life. We have noted an association with recent vaccination. Of the 30 HOD-affected dogs, 24 received a vaccination within 3-5 days of the onset of the disease. It is important to note, though that there were instances of HOD not associated with vaccination, so that the vaccination may be the trigger for disease expression on the susceptible genetic background.

Diagnosis of HOD relies on the typical history, clinical signs, and the presence of the characteristic radiographic findings showing changes at the growth plate of long bones. The cause of HOD remains unknown, with earlier speculations of vitamin C deficiency (Meier, 1957; Holmes, 1962) or over-nutrition (Riser, 1965) discounted in more recent times (Grondalen, 1976). There is mounting evidence that viral infection may be important in the disease., with Distemper virus detected in the growth plates of dogs with HOD (Mee, 1993). To date, we have not been able to identify a link to the Immunodeficiency disease of the Weimaraner related to low levels of blood antibody IgA or IgM.

Treatment of HOD in other breeds has traditionally relied on rest, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (such as aspirin), and opiate analgesics (such as butorphanol or fentanyl) as necessary. In most cases, the disease is self-limiting, and most dogs recover in several weeks. The disease in the Weimaraner is different. The Weimaraner breed is prone to a severe form of the disease, with disease progression in many dogs resulting in death without the proper treatment. Our current recommendation is for practitioners to rule out infectious causes for the fever, and in the presence of radiographic changes in growth plates consistent with HOD, to treat these dogs with corticosteroids. Prompt recognition of the disease, and appropriate treatment art the keys to a good outcome in this disease.

Mode of Inheritance of HOD in the Weimaraner

The mode of inheritance of HOD in the dog has not been reported, but there is an obvious breed predisposition suggesting that genetic factors play and important role. A useful index for influence of genetic factors in the disease is the heritability of a condition. Heritability varies from 0.0, in which there is not genetic influence, to 1.0, in which the effect is determined solely by genetics. Diseases with strong management influences (such as exposure to an infectious agent through communal grooming) are expected to have a low heritability, and response to selection against disease will be poor. The more appropriate course would be to identify the common theme, and altar the environment to prevent exposure to the cause of the disease.

A disease with a high heritability suggests that genetic factors are involved, and implies that a selection program against the disease will have and effect on the prevalence of the disease. Calculation of the heritability requires use of pedigrees, with accurate disease status indicated for as many dogs on the pedigree as possible. Preliminary work in our laboratory has found a high heritability for HOD in the Weimaraner of 0.68 (95% confidence interval of 0.65-0.71), suggesting that HOD in the Weimaraner may have a significant genetic component. It is very important to note that this value cannot be extrapolated to other breeds with HOD, as heritablity is only valid in the population from which it is measured. Other breed clubs will need to similarly calculate this value to gauge the likely success of an selection program against HOD.

We suspect that HOD in the Weimaraner is inherited as an autosomal recessive disease, although we still need more HOD-affected dogs to prove this. Some of the characteristics of an autosomal recessive disease that we are seeing in the Weimaraner with HOD include: 1) skipping of generations, and 2) mating of carriers results in the expected proportions of 25% affected, 50% carriers, and 25% unaffected (figure 1). Detection of carriers relies to date on test matings, which is definitely not the desired approach to long term control of the disease. Our data does not support and autosomal dominant mode of inheritance, nor do they support an X-linked (or sex-linked) mode of inheritance .

Importance of Carriers in Autosomal Recessive Disease

The success of any selection program in autosomal recessive diseases relies on accurate detection of animals carrying susceptibility genes (figure 2). In the best case scenario, the mating of an unsuspected carrier animal to an unaffected animal will still result in the production of 50% carriers in the progeny. This in effect maintains the susceptibility gene for the disease at high levels in the population, even if the disease is seen only sporadically when chance matings of two carriers occurs. We believe this is one of the difficulties in the control of HOD in the Weimaraner.

Weimaraners with HOD-susceptibility genes do not have any known phenotypic markers that permit identification, and to date the only way to detect these carriers has been by test matings. Detection of these carriers has also been hampered by use of modified vaccination protocols that are designed to prevent expression of HOD during the susceptible growth period. While it is important to look after the health of our puppies, this factor must be borne in mind when a selection program against HOD is to be implemented in the absence of a sensitive genetic marker. One of the aims of our group has been to locate a genetic marker for susceptibility to HOD, allowing for sensitive detection of these carriers, and thereby, design a suitable breeding program.

[je33ie]

If I were the breeder and could afford it, I'd give you the refund, but it would be as a gesture of goodwill rather than because of a legal obligation.

Yes, I agree. Although there are probably no legal requirements, I would give you a refund simply to keep up the reputation of the breeder. They are lucky that you haven't named them on here as they might have trouble selling their next litter.

When I got Geordie she came with a letter from the breeder saying if there was ever anything wrong, that I should contact her asap. I know that she would help me out in any way she could and would always return my emails if I was concerned about money!

I think the offer of a new pup is reasonable.

[Pug Hugger]

You poor thing - I know all about health problems in young pups. Louie is only 12 months old but has already cost me over $4,000 in specialist vet care. Like you and Molly's owner I could not contemplate replacing him.

Is the new pup in addition to your current or as a replacement? IF she is in addition and you wanted a second dog I think that s a reasonable offer to make amends.

[Dogsfevr]

"Is the new pup in addition to your current or as a replacement? IF she is in addition and you wanted a second dog I think that s a reasonable offer to make amends."

I think you will find the pup must be returned & a new pup supplied.

[centitout]

i think the offer of a new pup is reasonable-if i have it right from the info settrlover provided-there is no genetic test for this problem ? but as a gesture of goodwill ,if they wished to keep the other pup,i would still provide them with a replacement,or the purchase price of the pup when they have the next litter.sometimes new owners dont realise that breeders just dont always have money available for problems like that that are totally unexpected.

[puggy_puggy]

I am so sorry about your baby girl. I hope that you find out what is wrong with her and are able to fix it.

As for refunds or helping to pay medical bills I would say that it would be very very rare that a breeder would do either. It would be nice if they did help with costs if things were found to be caused by breeding and not by anything that you as a new owner had done.

Whilst most breeders will not offer money as compensation, if your dog dies or you pay thousands to treat an illness, they will usually offer you another puppy or dog, either for free or at a greatly reduced price.

[HOGWARTZBOXERS]

:p 2 ticks, coccida and a hernia??? Return to sender! cash refund ! Reputable............... Hogz

[Jed]

I don't think the ticks are a huge problem - they were probably so tiny when the dog left the breeder, they were just about invisible. I'd forgive the breeder that one.

The coccidia wasn't a problem - and it is easily and cheaply fixed. And they did tell you when they found out.

Hernia? Hmm, did you know when you purchased the dog? Cost about $20 - $30 extra to repair at desexing, but you should have been told.

The HOD - sorry, I don't know much about this, but according to what settrlvr wrote, if the dog is a wei, you may have a problem. Also, if it can occur following vaccinations, it's not the breeder's problem.

the kidney problem. Is it hereditary? Or doesn't anyone know?

As far as the law goes, you are entitled to a new pup, or a refund, if the pup is "unsuitable for the purposes intended" or faulty. But, according to the law, you need to return the "good" (ie, pup) Check the website for the dept of fair trading in your state.

If I owned the pup, I'd begin with the offer of another pup the breeder made, and I would try to work within that. Talk to her about keeping the pup you have. Is her life likely to be shortened? What will she do with the pup if you hand it back? Will she give you another pup if this pup lives only a short time?

As a breeder, I would want full information, including vet reports, and I would want some input from my vet. If you lived close enough, I would want my vet to see the pup.

I would have told you about the hernia when you bought the pup. If the HOD is likely to be ongoing, and expensive, and the kidney problem is hereditary - I would probably give you a refund. As a gesture of goodwill. You could then use the $$ to help with the vet bills, because I wouldn't want to take the pup back. Or you could have another pup.

But I would want some dialogue with you. Unfortunately, pups are living things, and problems do occur, even though the breeder may have taken all precautions and care.

[Borderpower]

Well, I voted shouldn't get a refund on the puppy, as you may have to return the puppy....

I also have a dog that was bought with a lot probs, but i could never return her as I love her very much.... :p

[Pug Hugger]

"Is the new pup in addition to your current or as a replacement? IF she is in addition and you wanted a second dog I think that s a reasonable offer to make amends."

I think you will find the pup must be returned & a new pup supplied.

Whoops - I see my reading skills have not improved lately!

[Pug Hugger]

I don't think the ticks are a huge problem - they were probably so tiny when the dog left the breeder, they were just about invisible. I'd forgive the breeder that one.

The coccidia wasn't a problem - and it is easily and cheaply fixed. And they did tell you when they found out.

Hernia? Hmm, did you know when you purchased the dog? Cost about $20 - $30 extra to repair at desexing, but you should have been told.

The HOD - sorry, I don't know much about this, but according to what settrlvr wrote, if the dog is a wei, you may have a problem. Also, if it can occur following vaccinations, it's not the breeder's problem.

the kidney problem. Is it hereditary? Or doesn't anyone know?

As far as the law goes, you are entitled to a new pup, or a refund, if the pup is "unsuitable for the purposes intended" or faulty. But, according to the law, you need to return the "good" (ie, pup) Check the website for the dept of fair trading in your state.

If I owned the pup, I'd begin with the offer of another pup the breeder made, and I would try to work within that. Talk to her about keeping the pup you have. Is her life likely to be shortened? What will she do with the pup if you hand it back? Will she give you another pup if this pup lives only a short time?

As a breeder, I would want full information, including vet reports, and I would want some input from my vet. If you lived close enough, I would want my vet to see the pup.

I would have told you about the hernia when you bought the pup. If the HOD is likely to be ongoing, and expensive, and the kidney problem is hereditary - I would probably give you a refund. As a gesture of goodwill. You could then use the $$ to help with the vet bills, because I wouldn't want to take the pup back. Or you could have another pup.

But I would want some dialogue with you. Unfortunately, pups are living things, and problems do occur, even though the breeder may have taken all precautions and care.

Ah Jed - if I gave you my breeder's phone number could you talk some of your very reasonable and common sense into her please???