Mouthing

[poodlefan]

GSDhandler dogs do not have enough logic. Its either everything or nothing for them - they can mouth or they cannot. There is no "oh you mouth like this, no softly, no not that hard...

Do not let the pup even put its mouth around your hand - you may think its affection but wait until the dog reaches adolscence you may be in for a suprise!

sorry but must disagree. know penty of people who have dogs trained well enough in this. IMHO this will not be a problem with her, as she does no longer put force onto her bite.

there is no intent. each dog is differnet i will agree.

So if your adult GSD with a large set of teeth and a fully developed set of jaw muscles playfully mouths a child, how do you think that will be interpreted?

I agree with Nekbet... it's a much safer bet for the dog to teach a puppy not to mouth you at all.

I would argue, in an age where people are quick to see almost anything a dog does as dangerous, you'd be better off keeping your dog's mouth off you and everyone else.

Edited August 6, 2008 by poodlefan

[GSDhandler]

GSDhandler dogs do not have enough logic. Its either everything or nothing for them - they can mouth or they cannot. There is no "oh you mouth like this, no softly, no not that hard...

Do not let the pup even put its mouth around your hand - you may think its affection but wait until the dog reaches adolscence you may be in for a suprise!

sorry but must disagree. know penty of people who have dogs trained well enough in this. IMHO this will not be a problem with her, as she does no longer put force onto her bite.

there is no intent. each dog is differnet i will agree.

So if your adult GSD with a large set of teeth and a fully developed set of jaw muscles playfully mouths a child, how do you think that will be interpreted?

I agree with Nekbet... it's a much safer bet for the dog to teach a puppy not to mouth you at all.

I would argue, in an age where people are quick to see almost anything a dog does as dangerous, you'd be better off keeping your dog's mouth off you and everyone else.

i can not get alll the bite out of my dog. she will need it. and as for child getting involed, what owner would i be if i did not watch my dog at risk situations like that. she will not be arund children to get into that situation.

as i said every dog i different and i am not saying that everyone should teach thier dog to soft mouth. i was just stating that i had taught my dog to do so.

[poodlefan]

i can not get alll the bite out of my dog. she will need it. and as for child getting involed, what owner would i be if i did not watch my dog at risk situations like that. she will not be arund children to get into that situation.

as i said every dog i different and i am not saying that everyone should teach thier dog to soft mouth. i was just stating that i had taught my dog to do so.

How old is she again?

Why will she need to bite?

Never say never about kids.. you'd be amazed how quick they can latch onto your dog. As I understand it from your posts, your dog is still mouthing hard.. just not on you. What lessons do you think she's learning about mouthing generally?

Edited August 6, 2008 by poodlefan

[LoremIpsum]

I've got a 1 year old lab that we brought home from the rescue shelter a couple of weeks back. At first she was very submissive but as her confidence grows she is beginning to do what I believe is mouthing. Is 1 too old to try and train her out of this???

I don't think it would be too old at all. For a start, that's still a puppy in Lab years. Secondly, can't dogs keep learning throughout their lives? And Labs are so eager to please and thirsty for knowledge. I'm no expert, and I'd look forward to the opinion of those who know, but certainly my gut instinct is that you could teach your Lab not to playbite.

Well done on the rescue, by the way. What a shame someone dumped such a young dog!

As for the "soft mouth" debate, as the owner of a young pup, I often hear that I should teach Martha to have a soft mouth (or bite inhibition) first, then teach her not to bite at all. So you start by only responding when she's biting too hard. Then, when she begins to bite more softly, you teach her not to mouth at all. My puppy school trainer explains things this way, for example. As I understand it, that's what you're saying you've done, GSDHandler? Or am I misreading things?

I must admit, the theory hasn't worked for Martha and me. But I attributed to this to my failure in training her. (Or perhaps that she just hasn't got there yet — she's only eleven weeks, after all.) Martha is biting just as hard as ever, so I now ignore her, remove her or remove myself EVERY time she bites, not just when she bites particularly hard. I've also been picking her up sometimes, and pressing my thumb under her tongue if I can't get her off me. The full range! I hope this isn't too confusing for her. But I actually think she is starting to improve since I've stepped up my responses.

I hope so, anyway.

[GSDhandler]

As for the "soft mouth" debate, as the owner of a young pup, I often hear that I should teach Martha to have a soft mouth (or bite inhibition) first, then teach her not to bite at all. So you start by only responding when she's biting too hard. Then, when she begins to bite more softly, you teach her not to mouth at all. My puppy school trainer explains things this way, for example. As I understand it, that's what you're saying you've done, GSDHandler? Or am I misreading things?

I must admit, the theory hasn't worked for Martha and me. But I attributed to this to my failure in training her. (Or perhaps that she just hasn't got there yet — she's only eleven weeks, after all.) Martha is biting just as hard as ever, so I now ignore her, remove her or remove myself EVERY time she bites, not just when she bites particularly hard. I've also been picking her up sometimes, and pressing my thumb under her tongue if I can't get her off me. The full range! I hope this isn't too confusing for her. But I actually think she is starting to improve since I've stepped up my responses.

I hope so, anyway.

THANKYOU someone for actually taking the time to think about a post before jumping down my throat. (and for the record mine was 13 wks before inhibition kicked in). and yeah, stepping up your responses is the best method in my experience.

and agreed on the point bout the 1 year lab. just work very hard on it, as it is a little harder to teach adult dogs. some say impossible but i have had miracle dogs before.

[GSDhandler]

i can not get alll the bite out of my dog. she will need it. and as for child getting involed, what owner would i be if i did not watch my dog at risk situations like that. she will not be arund children to get into that situation.

as i said every dog i different and i am not saying that everyone should teach thier dog to soft mouth. i was just stating that i had taught my dog to do so.

How old is she again?

Why will she need to bite?

Never say never about kids.. you'd be amazed how quick they can latch onto your dog. ;) As I understand it from your posts, your dog is still mouthing hard.. just not on you. What lessons do you think she's learning about mouthing generally?

around clubs and pubs mate. kids arent around there.... and at ohter times we will prob be sleeping the dead sleep of nightshift workers.

i get what youre trying to say... but i got pros leading me here.

[poodlefan]

GSD Handler:

and agreed on the point bout the 1 year lab. just work very hard on it, as it is a little harder to teach adult dogs. some say impossible but i have had miracle dogs before.

From my understanding of the studies, you can certainly teach a 1 year old dog not to put its mouth on you. Whether or not you can teach bite inhibition to a dog of this age is more problematic. The two issues are not the same.

For this dog in particular, the rule would need to be "no mouth on people" ever.

[poodlefan]

i can not get alll the bite out of my dog. she will need it. and as for child getting involed, what owner would i be if i did not watch my dog at risk situations like that. she will not be arund children to get into that situation.

as i said every dog i different and i am not saying that everyone should teach thier dog to soft mouth. i was just stating that i had taught my dog to do so.

How old is she again?

Why will she need to bite?

Never say never about kids.. you'd be amazed how quick they can latch onto your dog. ;) As I understand it from your posts, your dog is still mouthing hard.. just not on you. What lessons do you think she's learning about mouthing generally?

around clubs and pubs mate. kids arent around there.... and at ohter times we will prob be sleeping the dead sleep of nightshift workers.

i get what youre trying to say... but i got pros leading me here.

Well I would definitely defer to the pros for security dog training but if you want a dog to bite, I gather you would want it to bite hard every time? I wonder how teaching a dog to mouth gently sits with that. ;)

Edited August 7, 2008 by poodlefan

[GSDhandler]

GSD Handler:

and agreed on the point bout the 1 year lab. just work very hard on it, as it is a little harder to teach adult dogs. some say impossible but i have had miracle dogs before.

From my understanding of the studies, you can certainly teach a 1 year old dog not to put its mouth on you. Whether or not you can teach bite inhibition to a dog of this age is more problematic. The two issues are not the same.

For this dog in particular, the rule would need to be "no mouth on people" ever.

wasnt talking specifically bout inhibition mate. ;)

i can not get alll the bite out of my dog. she will need it. and as for child getting involed, what owner would i be if i did not watch my dog at risk situations like that. she will not be arund children to get into that situation.

as i said every dog i different and i am not saying that everyone should teach thier dog to soft mouth. i was just stating that i had taught my dog to do so.

How old is she again?

Why will she need to bite?

Never say never about kids.. you'd be amazed how quick they can latch onto your dog. ;) As I understand it from your posts, your dog is still mouthing hard.. just not on you. What lessons do you think she's learning about mouthing generally?

around clubs and pubs mate. kids arent around there.... and at ohter times we will prob be sleeping the dead sleep of nightshift workers.

i get what youre trying to say... but i got pros leading me here.

Well I would definitely defer to the pros for security dog training but if you want a dog to bite, I gather you would want it to bite hard every time? I wonder how teaching a dog to mouth gently sits with that. ;)

does still need to be able to live with me and mine..... while she isnt at work i dont cage her up and rattle the wites with sticks... though i do know companies that do ;) this method was reccomended to me by the guy who handles our dog division. its a bit of a contingency plan, as since koda is 13 wks old we cant know that her personality will be ok for work when she is old enough... but need to work on these things now... otherwise cant ever. keep the bite inhibition, rather than knocking mouthing out all togehter otherwise when she needs to bite she never will.

[poodlefan]

Here's a few interesting linkies on mouthing.

Dr Ian Dunbar's views

A bit more and a view on bite inhibition

[persephone]

I don't have any experience with training the 'bite' in prospective security dogs...

And I guess my example can be construed as a 'prey' thing...

BUT we have working sheep dogs- who are NOT allowed to bite when working- and this lesson is well instilled from puppyhood-

EXCEPT when they are told to- to bring down a particularly obstropolous sheep or a goat.

There is a command used- and then they WILL grab and hang on.. until told to leave.

(also they are never allowed to put teeth on human skin.)

Is it different when using a 'bite' on a human target?

Now you have me thinking ;)

[poodlefan]

I don't think there's any doubt that dogs can situate their behaviour.. witness the dog who will jump on and mouth person A, but not person B.

I suppose the essence of the issue for dogs trained in bite work is how a dog situates it's behaviour to unknown people in unusual circumstances.

Working security dogs can and do live as family pets (witness the two who live next door to me). However, how they react to known and unknown people is markedly different and not every unknown will be unfriendly.

This, I guess is one of the reasons why there are so many restrictions on the keeping of trained attack dogs.. it's an automatic label as a "dangerous dog" and a requirement to comply with all that entails here in the ACT.

We probably need some input from the industry/Schutzhund folk.

Edited August 7, 2008 by poodlefan

[GSDhandler]

please

would like to see other peoples opinions.

[Cosmolo]

Pet dogs should be taught that they should never put their mouth around a person- ever. Bite inhibition can be learned on things other than people, including playing with other puppies and IMO the greatest learning phase for bite inhibition is already over by the time you get your puppy. I have adult dogs with extremely soft mouths who were taught not to put their teeth on people but have excellent soft mouths when playing with dogs etc.

There is no reason to teach a puppy to 'mouth soft' ESPECIALLY if you are going to change the rules later and say no mouthing at all- it creates confusion for the pup.

[poochmad]

OK, can we get back to my original question please? :rolleyes:

We will continue to train him not to mouth us at all. (Personally I think it's easier not to have a dog mouthing at all, even if they're not biting. I had a setter that used to put his teeth gently on you [i was told it was a quirky breed thing] and I was told by a dog instructor at a club, that he was being aggressive!)

Perhaps my original question should have been....at what age do adult teeth come through?

[poodlefan]

OK, can we get back to my original question please? :rolleyes:

We will continue to train him not to mouth us at all. (Personally I think it's easier not to have a dog mouthing at all, even if they're not biting. I had a setter that used to put his teeth gently on you [i was told it was a quirky breed thing] and I was told by a dog instructor at a club, that he was being aggressive!)

Perhaps my original question should have been....at what age do adult teeth come through?

Did you read the links I posted pooch? Expect adult teeth to start appearing around 5 months.

[poochmad]

OK, can we get back to my original question please?

We will continue to train him not to mouth us at all. (Personally I think it's easier not to have a dog mouthing at all, even if they're not biting. I had a setter that used to put his teeth gently on you [i was told it was a quirky breed thing] and I was told by a dog instructor at a club, that he was being aggressive!)

Perhaps my original question should have been....at what age do adult teeth come through?

Did you read the links I posted pooch? Expect adult teeth to start appearing around 5 months.

Actually, I read through them all and this is the first time I've seen the actual age. :rolleyes: Thanks for the info, though.

[poodlefan]

Cool.. console yourself a little with the fact that gundogs are notoriously mouthy pups.

FHRPs Polo used to charge you with his mouth open to mouth you as a baby. :rolleyes:

Edited August 7, 2008 by poodlefan

[Nekhbet]

GSDhandler there is no reason a security dog should mouth you ... I have 2 and trust me no soft bites here.

It is a respect issue, not a bite issue. You need to build drive and move the dog from rag - toy - sleeve - bite suite slowly and build grip, drive and focus over time. At this age mouthing is still a no-no you need to build confidence and stability in your dog as well. Play, yes the more the better in the long run, build the relationship but you are not being consistant. No the dog does not know the difference between soft and later hard. When you start putting your dog under pressure down the track in training and you have some interesting behaviours crop up then you will know why. Also none of my dogs have ever redirected and bit me because mouthing was NEVER allowed.

Teaching your pup to never mouth will not kill the workability - if it does get a refund NOW!