Shock Collars

[Luke GSP]

You are right it is not about clickers but earlier on in the thread one of the anti ecollar protestors claimed that you could stop a dog on a rampage just as efficiantly with a clicker.

My gawd, talk about over the top... I said You can momentarily distract the dog with a clicker.....no type of situation was mentioned... but be as sarcastic as you like.. it wont win you any brownie points with me.

Gemibabe - thank you. But in all fairness, there are many good posts by others here that are designed to provide educational information or at least examples to demonstrate that the stim-collar is not the vial piece of equipment that you were lead to believe by the video clip you posted in your OP. I think they deserve respect too.

No sorry erny, no fairness with people like Luke and Tony and others that feel sarcasm will help in discussing my 'sweeping statement'. If they actually cared for the product they are defending then they wouldn't carry on the way they do.

How do you know how much shock the dog feels? This is what I have a problem with. Who can honestly know this?

My staffy is a pretty determined bitch, would she withstand the highest setting because she loves chasing the pigeons that much? I would say she would. She is a stubborn dog and very very determined.

1, your original posted statement was "this type of training tool should never be allowd on any animal." I think you will find that if you make "sweeping statements" like that about a training tool that you know nothing about other than what you have seen in a video clip on you tube you will get a face full. My dogs lives have been transformed by the e-collar, they can now freely roam with me through whatever terrain safe in the knowledge that no matter what, they will come running back to me with a single command. NO MATTER WHAT THE DISTRACTION IS! without an ecollar I could not have achieved this level of freedom for my high prey drive dogs off leash.

As to me using sarcasm what would you like me to do? Discuss your points? You didn't make any points only uninformed sweeping statements. Kind of hard to put a point by point case to a person that has made a general condemnation of something you know is untrue.

2,As to "How do you know how much shock the dog feels? This is what I have a problem with. Who can honestly know this?" I know what the collar feels like because I used it on myself first to find out using different skin areas as some part of your body are more/less sensitive. I have never taken my dog to a level that I have not experienced myself. What experiences have YOU had with a collar? That is why people like you aannoy me. You make sweeping statements about something that you know nothing about and have not bothered to research in any way.

3, In regard to your staffy, I would be amazed if she could with stand it. All dogs have a threshold/ working level. the art is to apply the stim before the dog reaches drive threshold or at least drive initiation rather than waiting for drive peak to try and stop a behaviour. As with any training method it is about TIMING!

[denis_c]

2,As to "How do you know how much shock the dog feels? This is what I have a problem with. Who can honestly know this?" I know what the collar feels like because I used it on myself first to find out using different skin areas as some part of your body are more/less sensitive. I have never taken my dog to a level that I have not experienced myself. What experiences have YOU had with a collar? That is why people like you aannoy me. You make sweeping statements about something that you know nothing about and have not bothered to research in any way.

quote]

Hi Luke

This is one of the key areas . we still don't know what a dog actually feels. There have been studies done looking at cortisol tests, which have suggested that stress levels rise with the use of e collars. The study is not entirely conclusive. I apologise that I do not have the reference here. If you want a quick precis, look at the relevant entry in wikipedia. Often, it is suggested that humans use the collar around their arms. I think a better position is around your neck... no I am not being funny, but like a dog, there is a lot more nerve wise going on around there. It is also important to get a similar pressure on the contacts as to what you would use with a dog.Contact pressure makes a huge difference to the current. I think too if you read about aversives in something like Lindsay, fear is a strong element . dogs have no idea that they are being "stimmed", and the fear induced by the "stim" may well have more of an effect on them rather than us cognitive humans who can say "well, I am about to have a stim/shock".

BTW the difference between a "shock collar" and an e collar is the number of different levels available, the reliability, the age of manufacture and the copywirter.

[Cosmolo]

Denis c- just a few points in regards to your last post-

- When i use an e collar, i don't see fear in the dog (even my fearful georgie who i talked about earlier in this thread) If the level is low enough that the dog just feels it, i find the response ranges from mild confusion to even excitement in some dogs. This is in the early phase. As soon as the dog understands the e collar they DO know a stimulation is coming if the collar has been used consistently and properly.

- My experience has told me that dogs stress levels reduce with a properly used e collar. With good timing, an e collar takes the stress and confusion away from the dog and gives them back control over the results they get from their behaviour. I have seen dogs who have been highly stressed or confused with other techniques relax within a very short time using an e collar.

- I don't believe the human neck is the same as a dogs neck- depending on where you position the probes. The tope of a dogs neck is not the same as a humans neck. There are other factors that need to be taken into account including the breed and build of the dog, amount of fat and muscle etc.

As a serious question to those who don't agree with e collars or anti bark collars- when other training has been exhausted, is static stimulation worse than death? (destruction order, poisoning etc are very real consequences for nuisance barking and being hit by a car happens often to dogs who do not come when called reliably off lead- not everyone can exercise their dogs to the degree needed on lead)

[Steve K9Pro]

DC: There have been studies done looking at cortisol tests, which have suggested that stress levels rise with the use of e collars.

K9: Stress levels will also rise if you show the dog a treat & do not give it to him. Stress is an integral part of training, its the level of stress & the way the trainer deals with it that is important.

Barking also induces stress in a dog.

DC: The study is not entirely conclusive

K9: Perhaps you could link us to this study or reference it for me? I havent seen a study done on low stim training, only high stim training.

DC: Often, it is suggested that humans use the collar around their arms. I think a better position is around your neck...

K9: I have placed remote collars around my neck, arms, legs, chest etc, there is little difference in the feeling or levels required to attain current flow.

I would also like to point out that I am nopt a dog, nor am I covered in thick hair, nor does my skin have the same electrical resistance levels as the skin of a dog, & these points are all the relevant differences between human & dog in relation to using a remote trainer.

DC: no I am not being funny, but like a dog, there is a lot more nerve wise going on around there

K9: No, this is incorrect, there are many more nerves that are connected to the human hand through the wrist / arm than there are in a dogs neck. If you locate a diagram of a dogs central nervous system you will see that there are very few nerves close to the skin of a dog in the neck.

The remote collars also do not disperse electric current into the central nervous system, but rather it uses the skin to transfer a very small amount of electric current across the section of the skin between the two probes (approx 3cm).

DC: Contact pressure makes a huge difference to the current.

K9: Not in modern remote devices, the collar has no possibility of ramping up the current past the point indicated on the remote based on higher resistance (poor contact). Poor contact usually results in no operation of the collar at all.

Poor contact is not a problem with the tool, but rather the user.

DC: I think too if you read about aversives in something like Lindsay, fear is a strong element . dogs have no idea that they are being "stimmed", and the fear induced by the "stim" may well have more of an effect on them rather than us cognitive humans who can say "well, I am about to have a stim/shock".

K9: I am not sure if your arguing against aversives in general now or e collars? Fear occurs with high levels of stim in comparison to a low level of temperament, & of course it has an effect, on all mamals.

The methods I use with the e collars make it possible to train the dog in drive, with the e collar. If the e collar was producing fear, the dog would not go into drive... So the suggestion its producing fear is flawed.

DC: BTW the difference between a "shock collar" and an e collar is the number of different levels available, the reliability, the age of manufacture and the copywirter.

K9: Perhaps you could show me a manufacturer that promotes electronic collars as shock collars?

Electric shock occurs by the passing of current through the body (using the central nervous system).

Dictionary definition of electric shock.

trauma caused by the passage of electric current through the body (as from contact with high voltage lines or being struck by lightning); usually involves burns and abnormal heart rhythm and unconsciousness

a reflex response to the passage of electric current through the body; "subjects received a small electric shock when they made the wrong response"; "electricians get accustomed to occasional shocks"

Modern e collars have two probes, the current travels between the two probes, not the central nervous system, so there is no electric shock occuring, hence the term shock collar is an incorrect description of the tool as we know it today.

[Steve K9Pro]

DC: Inside the ecollar is a circuit which boosts the 12 volts to somewhere between 500 -2000 volts. I hesitate to write this beause it seems a little sensational. What happens is that the cirucit is high impedance, once the current starts flowing the voltage drops back. A good article to read is on the Taser

K9: Just wanted to address this from an eariler, post. The Taser possess the power to cross between two posts approx 5 - 6 cm apart. This takes a massive amount of voltage to do. The e collar does not possess any such power.

The modern ignition system of a car can produce 60 000 volts quite easily & more, the current though is miniscule, which means that it is harmless even though it is using bthe central nervous system as a path looking for a ground.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: This link to my website may also be of some help.

http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=remotecollar.html

[Erny]

DC: There have been studies done looking at cortisol tests, which have suggested that stress levels rise with the use of e collars.

K9: Stress levels will also rise if you show the dog a treat & do not give it to him. Stress is an integral part of training, its the level of stress & the way the trainer deals with it that is important.

Thanks K9 .... I returned here to make these same comments. "Stress" in the absence of training tools such as stim-collars and even tools such as the PPCollar (aka "pinch" collar) is often forgotten/ignored, when IMO it very much should NOT be. "Prolonged stress" in training exercises that take longer for the dog to learn is not much discussed in many circles.

DC: The study is not entirely conclusive

K9: Perhaps you could link us to this study or reference it for me? I havent seen a study done on low stim training, only high stim training.

I would be interested in this study too, DC ?

K9 : The remote collars also do not disperse electric current into the central nervous system, but rather it uses the skin to transfer a very small amount of electric current across the section of the skin between the two probes (approx 3cm).

A point that is also commonly overlooked.

And thanks, K9, for the other of your explanations/comments, including clarification to the common misnomer of "shock" when it comes to reference of a stim-collar :

K9 : Electric shock occurs by the passing of current through the body (using the central nervous system).

Dictionary definition of electric shock.

trauma caused by the passage of electric current through the body (as from contact with high voltage lines or being struck by lightning); usually involves burns and abnormal heart rhythm and unconsciousness

a reflex response to the passage of electric current through the body; "subjects received a small electric shock when they made the wrong response"; "electricians get accustomed to occasional shocks"

Modern e collars have two probes, the current travels between the two probes, not the central nervous system, so there is no electric shock occuring, hence the term shock collar is an incorrect description of the tool as we know it today.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

Flip: I own the biggest fastest asshole of a dog and when he ran off i used to think, wouldnt it be good to shock him because he frustrated me so much when he defied me but i knew how to fix him but it wouldnt be easy, should i shock him or should i do the hard yards? i did the hard yards without shock and he is calm happy dog. so i guess the option is: shock em because im lazy or dont know what to do or do i put time into my dog and slowly iron out the bad behavour.

Its a choice an owner can only make for their own dog.

K9: Just sifting though different comments..

I wonder who taught your dog to run off? That is a learned behaviour you know....

[Erny]

DC : If I have to use an Aversive, I tend to use properly applied time out

Monelite : so you are at work, dog barks, how do you apply time out than?

I also use common sense when I train dogs. I realise that events like this can occur, and it is obvious to all and sundry that a time out can not be used. It is why I am not an absolutist.

DC .... just so I can get an idea of where you are coming from - what do you mean by the above? In particular the "I am not an absolutist" part? IE "Not an absolutist" in relation to what?

What would you use when 'training' is required even though you cannot be present?

Edited August 5, 2008 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

Flip: I own the biggest fastest asshole of a dog and when he ran off

Flip: having a big dog who would quicker bite and is head strong

Flip: i do own a massive hard nose dog though

K9: Interesting comments. I prefer to show my dogs, the moment I get them, what I expect rather than letting them turn into dogs that run off, would bite quick or become hard nosed.

It is sort of like growing weeds just to pull them when you alow them to develop these behaviours.

Flip: assuming that every one knew as much as trainers knew then there wouldnt be any problem with e collars but as you being a good trainer would know that that there are alot of people who would use em incorrectly!

K9: The truth is, most people have no idea how to train dogs, I make it a priority in a consult to explain why dogs do what they do & the majority of people leave quite a bit wiser, however, they dont leave with any more training experience & they still do have the problem of a dog with an undesireable habit.

I dont train dogs, I train people to train their dogs. Leaving your dog with me will see me be able to get your dog to do what I want it to do, & I dont need to use an e collar. But, it isnt my dog nor is getting your dog to work for me, and not you, the goal is it?

Its about providing a solution to the dog poroblem you have, that may mean to get you results with your dog in the time frame you have you may need advanced tools to bring you up to speed as a leader, to reverse bad habits that have been practiced many times, & in those cases, sometimes, the e collar is the answer.

[denis_c]

Hi People

You have raised some points that I need to illustrate and expand on which I am happy to do. Unfortunately i am away from my reference material (I am at work) and will produce a reply tomorrow evening. I have a couple of dogs and a dog class tonight, and I would prefer to produce an accurate reply which takes a little time.

[Erny]

It is sort of like growing weeds just to pull them when you allow them to develop these behaviours.

Chuckle ...... I'm glad my profession is "dog training/behaviour" and not "gardening". Because going by your analogy, I will have failed before I even got going. You'd only have to see my garden to attest to that!!!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Perhaps you would prefer this one

"some people train dogs like they fly kites, they let the string out further & further until the string slips out of their hands, then spend the rest of the day chasing an out of control kite"..

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I have provided a link to my website as to why one would use an e collar, but something I wanted to add.

When someone has a dog problem, no matter what that problem may be, allowing it to continue is allowing the dog to continue to gain success, which will strengthen the behaviour.

The first step to curing this is to stop the behaviour from occuring.

Simple steps one might say.

But if that behaviour is happening at a distance from the handler, any reaction by the handler only marks that behaviour as attention gaining. Therefore further strengthening the behaviour.

EG: Your dog is aggressive toward other dogs.

See's a dog & barks lunges etc etc

You say stop it, no, raise your voice, pull on the leash etc etc, your adding to the problem.

Your dog is barking outside, you walk out & say (insert any comment), the dog just got your attention which rewards the barking.

Sure, remain inside, let the dog bark, ignore it, technically this is correct & I suppose you can deal with the destruction order the council issues when it arrives. I think they call it "crossing that bridge when we come to it", or as I call it, lack of planning...

You must do whatever it takes to stop the behaviour in its tracks now not procratinate on about whats best for the dog based on internet you tube clips of some clown pretending he is a dog...

[persephone]

"some people train dogs like they fly kites, they let the string out further & further until the string slips out of their hands, then spend the rest of the day chasing an out of control kite"..

I have a couple of freeflying 'kites' ......

[Just Midol]

Dennis, you either have a very poor understanding of electricity or you are intentionally being vague in order to mislead people.

[MonElite]

isnt denis c an electrical engineer or something simmilar?

Edited August 5, 2008 by Monelite

[Just Midol]

I sure hope not as that would mean he is intentionally misleading people.

Tasers can not be compared to any type of electric collar. At all. They are not comparable in the slightest, ohh, well, I guess both use electricity. You could POSSIBLY make a comparison to stun guns but even that is a huge stretch.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Lord Midol

[denis_c]

I sure hope not as that would mean he is intentionally misleading people.

Tasers can not be compared to any type of electric collar. At all. They are not comparable in the slightest, ohh, well, I guess both use electricity. You could POSSIBLY make a comparison to stun guns but even that is a huge stretch.

Hi

I was using this article to make a single point, which is that a two terminal device will produce a radial not a point to point pattern. That is all. Off course the taser uses much higher voltages, off course it is meant to be a man stopper. The field pattern that a Taser produes is of much higher intensity than an e collar, but it's pattern is very very similar. I thought i had made that clear. It is often stated to the point of ad nauseum that the e collar current flows (in a striaight line) from point to point. This is not a correct or reasonable assertion so I thought that a picture of the current flow of a two terminal device would be helpful for people to visualise. I thought that the discussion about how the muscle protects the organs was a bit interesting too from a general knowledge point of view, and form where the current might flow in a dog.. If anything what I am saying on this issue should not help or hinder any side of this debate. It is just important to get the info right . I am just trying to get the facts straight and loose the pro and anti hysteria in this debate.

Yes I am an electronics engineer. SInce it seems important in this conversation, would you like to tell me what your occupation is ?

[MonElite]

denis we have been through the occupation/eduation/experiences conversation couple of times already, when you are labandpoodle and another simmilar nick you had before. Why do you want to do it again?