Shock Collars

[Luke GSP]

hmmmmm....If only breeders of small white dogs would give free barking collars with their puppies to clueless small white dog owners....

The problem with that is that it might get stuck in our GSP's throats when they accidentally swallow the SWF :D JOKE, Slipping in to my flame retardent suit as we speak.

[Luke GSP]

"The collar is either humane, or it isn't. It's humane imo. Since it is a humane training tool... Why should I use it as a last resort or only on problem dogs? If it was inhumane... I'd never use it, not even on problem dogs."

Actually, this statement is not logically consistent. there are many other options too! But, this is outside of the topic. I would suggest that you have a look at a few books on Logic, often covered at the Undergraduate level in Maths or Philosophy. That would clear this misunderstanding up.

Denis c

please read midols post again and then if it still does not make sense read once more as I think you will find that it is logical. It is not the easiest sentance to read (no offence midol) but it does make logical sense. Basically I believe that midols point was.

humane=why use the collar only for problems or last resorts? Why not use it for any training regime that it is applicable?

inhumane= never use it even as a last resort.

[Just Midol]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry - was up all night spewing up so I am a little tired (No offense taken at all.)

Edited August 4, 2008 by Lord Midol

[Erny]

Sorry - was up all night spewing up so I am a little tired (No offense taken at all.)

Oh yuck Midol. Too much info . Could you not have just said "I wasn't well last night" ??? :wink:

..... hope you're feeling better now though.

Edited August 4, 2008 by Erny

[Jamaica]

The way flip was talking sound very much like hes parroting Cesar Milan to me..

"Being calm and adsertive" <--- (assertive)

"calm submissive behavour" (behaviour)

"I did see training with shock collars to train dogs to keep away from snakes, and majority of the time the dog only had to be shocked once and the dog on its next test stayed well clear of the snake." A episode of the Dog Whisperer

"you dont punish dogs, you should discipline them" also what cesar milan says.

parroting!!! couldnt you just say it sounds like Ceaser, instead of trying to insult.

what it seems that your saying that he is the only one in the whole world who uses those methods,

but there is one thing you can do for me love, is keep correcting my spelling.

thanks to others though who actually replied to my last Q: about age

[Just Midol]

Sorry - was up all night spewing up so I am a little tired (No offense taken at all.)

Oh yuck Midol. Too much info . Could you not have just said "I wasn't well last night" ??? :wink:

..... hope you're feeling better now though.

Lmao, I could have but that wouldn't have been as effective!

[2tollers]

A while ago I was given a demo of a remote training collar.

First it was attached to my arm, and the setting was on something like 9 (I can't remember all of the numbers exactly but it gives you an idea). I think it could go up as high as 30??? I felt the slightest tingle on my arm and it only lasted a split second.

Then it was put on my dog and the setting was 3. On this day we'd left his tennis ball at the dam and was desperate to go and get it back. He was constantly pulling to get there. His lead was taken off and when he took himself past a certain point the collar was activated and in no time at all he got the hang of it and knew he couldn't just run off.

If anyone knows Tollers they'd know that they're the biggest pussy's around and if they're treated harshly in any way they retreat into themselves. Todd was still wagging his tail and you could almost see him thinking about what the best thing was that he could do for himself. I like the idea that such a gentle thing was applied which made the dog think for itself.

If I could afford a collar I'd get one. I think it would be easier to train a dog with a remote collar and I don't know if I'm right or not, but can't you use them for a while and then stop.

See you at Anglesea flip.

[gemibabe]

You are right it is not about clickers but earlier on in the thread one of the anti ecollar protestors claimed that you could stop a dog on a rampage just as efficiantly with a clicker.

My gawd, talk about over the top... I said You can momentarily distract the dog with a clicker.....no type of situation was mentioned... but be as sarcastic as you like.. it wont win you any brownie points with me.

Gemibabe - thank you. But in all fairness, there are many good posts by others here that are designed to provide educational information or at least examples to demonstrate that the stim-collar is not the vial piece of equipment that you were lead to believe by the video clip you posted in your OP. I think they deserve respect too. :D

No sorry erny, no fairness with people like Luke and Tony and others that feel sarcasm will help in discussing my 'sweeping statement'. If they actually cared for the product they are defending then they wouldn't carry on the way they do.

How do you know how much shock the dog feels? This is what I have a problem with. Who can honestly know this?

My staffy is a pretty determined bitch, would she withstand the highest setting because she loves chasing the pigeons that much? I would say she would. She is a stubborn dog and very very determined.

Someone mentioned that they weren't sure if we were talking about the same collars here. As K9 force said, its an anti barking collar. When the dog barks it shocks the dog with electricity... I'm not sure what the difference is between other collars but if there are so many diff variety's out there, how can you be so sure its ok to use on any dog?

Alot of people were quick to say its an ecollar... is an ecollar controlled by how much the dog barks or by someone controlling how short or long the zap is given? big difference I feel.

[Erny]

Gemibabe - you have some very strong and firm beliefs about the e-collar (be it a "remote" training collar, or an anti-bark collar). It would help us to be able to understand from where the points you are asserting in this thread are coming from if you would be able to give some description of your experience and/or knowledge in training with them? This will certainly help me (and I am sure the other knowledgeable and experienced people here) know how to best answer the points you are making?

Oh ... and when you made the comment "You can momentarily distract the dog with a clicker btw... " I took your tone to be one of a bit "high and mighty, know it all and thumb your nose up", as well. Sorry if that isn't what you intended - tone can be difficult to detect from the written word and I guess I took it as written with the same strength as your other assertions against the stim-collar, which only suggested to me that you really didn't understand the stim-collar (be it "remote trainer" or "anti-bark") and how it is properly used in training and behaviour modification with dogs.

So I disagree with your comment that others are being sarcastic. If anything I think most of us are a bit startled at how forceful you are coming across on a subject that your posts suggest you don't know that much about. And "not knowing" is ok too. But showing us that you're amenable to learning would be helpful .

You could perhaps check your tone too? Perhaps it is being taken wrongly, but use of emoticons might help with that? :wink: :D

Edited August 4, 2008 by Erny

[sas]

Remove the word 'zap' and you'll get closer to understanding e-collars.

[Erny]

When the dog barks it shocks the dog with electricity...

From a 12 volt battery.

As I understand it, "shock" was a word more in line with the early-day stim-collars (or e-collars) ..... where the current (?) generated went through the dog's neck to a contact point on the other side of the collar. Stim or e-collars are much more sophisticated now (as is their use in training methodology) and the stimulation created by the 12 volt battery travels only through the skin to the nearby contact point.

Gemibabe .... what training method would you use and how, to reliably achieve proofing against (eg) a high prey drive dog (eg) chasing live-stock ??

Edited August 4, 2008 by Erny

[haven]

Gemibabe, I'm not sure if you realise the difference between the two main methods of use when it comes to remote trainers and ecollars, so forgive me if I'm covering something you already know here:

The method you seem to be objecting to in this thread is that of a remote trainer or similar device used as a punisher, with the aim of modifying a bad behaviour such as chronic barking or stock chasing. The level of stimulus required is obviously different with every dog and depends also on things like how long the behaviour has been established, the timing with which the correction is delivered etc but it is usually a high intensity punisher. Note that when I say high intensity I mean as high as is required to stop the behaviour, which is definitely not the same as high enough to launch the dog into mid air - these collars just don't have that capacity! The thing to realise is that this method is usually a last resort for most people, when other methods have failed and their dog, or another animal, is at risk in some way because of the behaviour. As I think K9 said, most people find it acceptable to use a collar on a high intensity level at this point when a serious injury or a dead dog is the likely alternative.

Ecollars and the like are used on the principle of negative reinforcement - the stimulus is applied at an extremely LOW level, just enough so that the dog can feel it. If you were to try it on yourself it's just a very mild buzzing or tingling sensation on the skin and rather than being aversive to the dog it becomes highly appetetive, as the dog quickly learns that the stimulus means a command is coming, which is an opportunity for reinforcement. Depending how you train, turning off the collar can become just as much as a game for the dog as learning how to achieve a click when shaping a behaviour.

It may not change your mind about ecollars and you may always feel strongly about using one on your own dog, but you would be doing yourself a serious favour if you looked into it a little more and got a chance to see some dogs work that have been properly trained using an ecollar because it really is a wonderful thing to see. Used correctly they're far from the torture devices many people make them out to be!

Kind of OT here but I got to thinking while posting:

I have a TENS machine here at the moment ready to strap on when I go into labour and the stimulus produced is much the same as that given by an ecollar. One of the principles behind it's use for this purpose is that it causes the body to produce endorphins, which are natural pain relievers and induce a feeling of euphoria and general well being. Is anyone aware of any research indicating that ecollars have a similar effect in dogs when used as a low level stim?

[Erny]

Kind of OT here but I got to thinking while posting:

I have a TENS machine here at the moment ready to strap on when I go into labour and the stimulus produced is much the same as that given by an ecollar. One of the principles behind it's use for this purpose is that it causes the body to produce endorphins, which are natural pain relievers and induce a feeling of euphoria and general well being. Is anyone aware of any research indicating that ecollars have a similar effect in dogs when used as a low level stim?

Hi Haven .... was sitting here earlier thinking about you. Noticed I hadn't seen you for (a whole!) 24 hours or so .... so began doing a bit of wondering of my own! LOL Not long now!!

Regarding the TENS machine - it was discussed in another thread from some time ago that related to e-collars. There was much talk about electrical terminology speak and the thread got a bit 'strong' - I admit to getting a bit lost with it to be able to relate it back very well here. Add to that the amount of time lapsed since that thread .... I'd certainly need to refresh my memory of it. If I can find the thread I'll hook up a link to it, even though if I remember rightly, the reading of it might become somewhat heavy with some psychobabble. Other than that, if I recall well, the thread contained information that could well be found useful and enlightening by some.

[gemibabe]

Erny/Haven thank you for explaining the difference. I dont' think I've mentioned anything 'bad' about the ecollar, only the shock collars, or anti barking ones..

Seems everyone had a go at me for jumping to my conclusion about the shock collar but they were all quick to judge me and and jumped to their conclusion that I was having a go at their ecollars... which wasn't the case at all, unless they are putting the two in the same basket... is that whats happening here I wonder?

"Shock" collars, as you call them are (AFAIK) most often used as a GENTLE 'poke' on the neck- to momentarily distract the dog, and turn his/her attention.

Erny - My momentarily comment was in response to this one made by peresphone and wasn't meant to sound 'high and mighty'.. more of well if thats what its for, you can do just the same with a clicker.. And as stated earlier, the situation in which one would use a clicker or a shock wasn't mentioned.

I don't have training expertise, but I don't like the idea of a shock to the dog, the more it barks. Dogs bark for alot of reasons and as shown in that video the darn thing zapped the guy when he spoke, so if the dog is whimpering because it hurt, would the dog be logical and stop whimpering??

ps: I waited till 2am again oops naughty me

Edited August 4, 2008 by gemibabe

[Kavik]

Hi gemibabe

I think there is usually a time gap between the stims in an anti-barking collar, it is not continuous. I think they allow for other vocalisations, but not barking (but not sure if this is all collars or if they differ). Some anti-barking collars start on the lowest level and only increase the level if the dog continues to bark, I think they even stop after a certain amount of time. If the dog stops barking, it goes back to the lowest level. Others you can set the level.

You cannot use a clicker to distract the same way you would use an ecollar. A clicker is used as a marker for the dog when it has done the right thing - like a camera capturing a moment. You use it as the dog is doing the action you want. Great tool, I love it for teaching tricks. If you clicked when the dog was distracted, you would reward for whatever the dog was doing at the time, which if it was distracted is not what you want.

An ecollar is used before any command is given, to get the dog's attention to let it know that a command is coming. So it is like a tap on the shoulder if you are about to move off and the person is facing the other way or engaged in a conversation.

[MonElite]

I dont' think I've mentioned anything 'bad' about the ecollar, only the shock collars

whats the difference? has anyone here EVER promoted use of "shock" collars? are you able to give us a make and model of one so that we can stay away from them.

[denis_c]

When the dog barks it shocks the dog with electricity...

From a 12 volt battery.

As I understand it, "shock" was a word more in line with the early-day stim-collars (or e-collars) ..... where the current (?) generated went through the dog's neck to a contact point on the other side of the collar. Stim or e-collars are much more sophisticated now (as is their use in training methodology) and the stimulation created by the 12 volt battery travels only through the skin to the nearby contact point.

Gemibabe .... what training method would you use and how, to reliably achieve proofing against (eg) a high prey drive dog (eg) chasing live-stock ??

Erny, I don't want to come to blows over this, but this isn't right. Inside the ecollar is a circuit which boosts the 12 volts to somewhere between 500 -2000 volts. I hesitate to write this beause it seems a little sensational. What happens is that the cirucit is high impedance, once the current starts flowing the voltage drops back. A good article to read is on the Taser

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec07/5731/taserf2 . This article deals with how a Taser works which is much higher voltage but the princiapls are much the same. Note how the current flow is radial ( NOT point to point) and note how muscle layers can protect organs from damage. The IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) is the peak body of these engineers world wide.

So I don't get misquoted here is my position All Aversives should be used sparingly. If I have to use an Aversive, I tend to use properly applied time out. I find the ANKC stance on e collars and prong collars a little hypercritical, and I believe that e collars or pinch collars are no better no worse than correction collars. I don't seek to have any of these banned as reasonable use is a restriction of reasonable personal choice.

In my day to day training, it would be very rare that I would seek to use any kind of Aversive. .I belong to a type of trainer that would in general hold to these principals and who back it up with high levels of success in dog sports. You would only need to look at the participants in "Top Dog" to check the veracity of this statement.

Denis Cody

[Erny]

Erny/Haven thank you for explaining the difference. I dont' think I've mentioned anything 'bad' about the ecollar, only the shock collars, or anti barking ones..

Not sure why you would raise a topic on collars the style of which aren't used anymore? Anti-bark stim-collars aren't the "bad" you asserted/implied them to be either, Gemibabe.

Erny - My momentarily comment was in response to this one made by peresphone and wasn't meant to sound 'high and mighty'.. more of well if thats what its for, you can do just the same with a clicker..

But the clicker should not be compared in having the same purpose or excellent training qualities as stim-collars do. The clicker is used as a "marker" to tell the dog what a good job it just did. Same as a "marker" word such as "yes!". If the dog is not trained to a clicker, perhaps the sound of it will be sufficient to distract it momentarily from what it is doing, but it is not going to work under high drive nor over distance. In many cases, it won't even necessarily work for low drive situations.

I don't have training expertise, but I don't like the idea of a shock to the dog, the more it barks. Dogs bark for alot of reasons and as shown in that video the darn thing zapped the guy when he spoke, so if the dog is whimpering because it hurt, would the dog be logical and stop whimpering??

This is just it, Gemibabe. You are assuming that a dog will keep pressing the anti-bark in its levels just as that person on the video clip did. If that person were a dog, I highly suspect he would have preferred not to bark once the stimulation became uncomfortable. Did you not notice that person becoming increasingly reluctant to "bark" as the levels on the collar were increased (at his own direction and only for the purpose of the video clip .... not a "training" example)? And the whole point about an anti-bark stim-collar is to cease the behaviour (which commonly occurs when the owner can't be present to do anything about it anyway) so that neighbours won't continue to be annoyed and so that any destruction order on the dog is unlikely to ensue or may be withdrawn.

The main thing is that (I hope) you've learnt something in relation to the good and effective use of stim-collars from the discussion that has evolved as a result of your thread? :D

Edited August 5, 2008 by Erny

[MonElite]

what collar are we talking aobut here now.

Anti barking??

if so than

If I have to use an Aversive, I tend to use properly applied time out.

so you are at work, dog barks, how do you apply time out than?

[denis_c]

If I have to use an Aversive, I tend to use properly applied time out

so you are at work, dog barks, how do you apply time out than?

I also use common sense when I train dogs. I realise that events like this can occur, and it is obvious to all and sundry that a time out can not be used. It is why I am not an absolutist.