Shock Collars

[helen]

Just to add, watching the video it does seem to have an element of acting.

Edited August 2, 2008 by helen

[Kavik]

Turn off the computer for a bit and look what happens

flip

I was using behaviour terminology. Positive punishment is when something is added with the aim of decreasing behaviour (correction), negative reinforcement is when something is taken away with the aim of increasing behaviour.

I am not comfortable using negative reinforcement, so don't use an ecollar. I don't use a force retrieve either (though goodness knows Diesel's retrieve could use some improvement )

[Luke GSP]

can the typical DOL mentality of ganging up on people cease please. Some of you really need to step out of this unless you have something constructive to add.

What constructive information have you added? I have seen a load of "opinion" and "sweeping statements" from you with little factual evidence. What actual training have you actually seen where an e-collar was used? ON telly (Balls of steel) I saw some guys throwing darts in to each others arses! Should we ban all darts? I have also seen guys drop a billiard ball on anothers private parts from four storeys! Should we ban billiard balls? POINT?Everything can be abused by an idiot.

Out of interest when you discuss the subject of e-collars are you refering to their use in which method

Avoidance Training

Focus and control

Tap and Bounce

or

Guidance system?

As to the question should e-collars be available over the counter of every store? I believe NO. on the other hand I also believe that a person should not be able to own, buy, sell or breed a dog without some level of formal training or knowledge,and I am not talking about how many times to feed rover a day.

An e-collar is a tool, as is a clicker, check chains, treats, prongs, our voice, our body language etc they can all be used with great success. the choice of tool largely depends on the job (dog) in question. You would not try and undo a nut with a screw driver. All the aforementioned tools have their place, used correctly, Applied inteligently and not abused. Clickers are great if your dog is in to them, and also depending on the training you are trying to do. I would like to know how people would suggest that you Snake proof a dog with a clicker?

[Luke GSP]

Turn off the computer for a bit and look what happens

flip

I was using behaviour terminology. Positive punishment is when something is added with the aim of decreasing behaviour (correction), negative reinforcement is when something is taken away with the aim of increasing behaviour.

I am not comfortable using negative reinforcement, so don't use an ecollar. I don't use a force retrieve either (though goodness knows Diesel's retrieve could use some improvement )

Kavik,

I am a little confused perhaps you could explain your post a little for me? Could you give me an example of a positive punishment that you could use on a dog who constantly chases moving prey items ie rabbits birds etc? I am not trying to be an a hole, and I promise this is not a loaded question I genuinely want to understand the difference between the two.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Luke GSP

[Ms James]

Gemibabe, interesting that you waited till nearly 2 in the morning to post.

Firstly here in this Country, everybody has the freedom of speech and expression.I would defend anybody's right to express themselves.In my eye's some responsibility come's with freedom of speech.I see that responsibility as being to tell the truth and if unsure of one's statement's or views on something,then check with reputable source's, before running with it.

The Net is many things such as entertainment and information.The information availible on the net ranges from correct,partially correct,irrational information,mistruth and downright lies.One cannot just take something on the Net to be automatically correct or gospel.That would indeed be foolish!!!!

You have used the tired old saying that people are engaging the gang mentality.I am afraid that is a very empty and rather poor comeback and has no constuctive element to it.

Because People will defend against mistruths,distortions and lies, do's not equate to them being in Gang mentality.

Please read again my earlier post about the logic you are using.

Watching one video, do's not give one the hands on experience and true knowledge on which to constructively pass a judgement.

Tony

Hear! Hear!

I hate that mentality of equating disagreement with bullying. It's getting very, very old.

The people in this thread are passionate about educating owners as to all training methods and choosing the right tool for your dog. They have done so in an informative & non-confrontational manner. The trainers here give their time and expertise freely, and for that I am extremely grateful. No one disagrees with purely positive methods, but we all have to understand that not one method will work for all dogs.

Shouting "cruelty!" when faced with an obviously emotionally manipulative video will achieve one thing: the uneducated masses will fear the tool without any further interest in pursuing the truth regardless of logical debate.

[Kavik]

Lets use a recall example, since that is about the extent of my knowledge of ecollars

OK positive punishment would be if your dog already knows how to come, you call the dog, the dog doesn't respond and you correct the dog for not complying with your command (whether by leash, ecollar etc)

Negative reinforcement is the ecollar stim is turned on, you call the dog, the stim is turned off when the dog comes to you.

I don't know much about crittering (using ecollars to stop chasing animals) so can't answer your question there.

[Luke GSP]

Lets use a recall example, since that is about the extent of my knowledge of ecollars

OK positive punishment would be if your dog already knows how to come, you call the dog, the dog doesn't respond and you correct the dog for not complying with your command (whether by leash, ecollar etc)

Negative reinforcement is the ecollar stim is turned on, you call the dog, the stim is turned off when the dog comes to you.

I don't know much about crittering (using ecollars to stop chasing animals) so can't answer your question there.

So positive is correction after displaying the unwanted behaviour and ignoring the command (avoidance) where Negative training the dog is precursored with the stim and learns to turn the collar off by complying with your command (The escape method)? is that right? Sorry if I am being a lttle slow on the uptake but it is a Sunday

[Kavik]

Pretty much. The positive and negative at the front DOES NOT refer to whether the method is positive or negative, but rather whether the stimulus is added or taken away.

there is

positive reinforcement (eg treat for complying with command)

positive punishment (eg correction for not complying with command)

negative reinforcement (eg recall eg above with ecollar)

negative punishment (eg sin binning, or removal of reward etc)

If you want to know how I personally would stop my dogs from chasing rabbits and birds, I would do one of two things

Either

1) Keep the dog on lead

OR

2) Have a rock solid drop at a distance and/or recall under heavy distraction. I train this with rewards, you could use an ecollar if you wanted.

BUT I don't live on acreage/bush or have hunting dogs or anything, this is to do with my pet/competition dogs in suburbia, most they would see is the odd bird or rabbit at the park.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Kavik

[Erny]

Do you know why a vet has to determine the suitability? What things would the vet be looking for in suitability or what would fail the dog for suitability Erny?

Apart from the "health" aspect, and as I understand it, the reason a Vet was appointed to determine suitability was because the Govt were at a loss to easily and without complications, identify any one other group that was 'qualified' (using formal terms) in the eyes of the Government. It is acknowledged within the documents from Government that the downside of this was that Vets across the board do not necessarily have the experience in dog behaviour and training nor a good understanding of the tool in question. But that's what they went with anyway .....

AND....can the typical DOL mentality of ganging up on people cease please. Some of you really need to step out of this unless you have something constructive to add.

No-one's ganging up or bullying you Gemibabe. You've simply made a statement, an assertion if you will. And now you're recognising how many people disagree with you and are pointing out where and how your statement/assertion is flawed.

If you make a statement on a public forum, be prepared to be able to stack it up with sound, factual reasoning. So far as I've read, you haven't managed to do this and just because there's no-one agreeing with you, you've cried "ganging up" ?? The "typical DOL mentality" is to counter statements when they identify there is no sound reasoning behind them. If that's not to your liking and you're not prepared to learn from the postings of others, then perhaps you need to think twice before you post.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Erny

[Erny]

It seems people will always be bullied on this forum if you disagree with the e-collar trainers as you have found. There are some positive training forums I can direct you to if you are interested, just send a pm to me

It's not a matter of bullying Helen. It's a matter of statements made ..... statements that become idiotic because the "author" doesn't acknowledge the knowledge and wisdom of those who actually do know a bit about what they speak about, and continue to "argue" without substance. In my experience, DOL is an informative and educational forum and many people have actually come away learning something. In fact, if Gemibabe has read the posts here, the majority of them are actually very informative and show reason as to why people disagree with what she has stated.

But if people don't wish to learn and do wish to only speak in circles with people who will only agree with them, then yes, perhaps moving to a different forum will provide the OP with the satisfaction she's striving for.

There's no bullying going on here - I for one welcome opposing thoughts provided they have some sound basis.

Refuting statements made is not bullying. Oh, and I asked some questions of Gemibabe but they haven't been answered. Perhaps they've been overlooked?

ETA - Gemibabe (and anyone else who would like to contribute) ..... explain to us your good reasoning for the opinion you've expressed about the e-collar here and let us have some good constructive discussion about it.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Erny

[lovemesideways]

I've never used a E-collar, but I've seen them used correctly and think that they, like everything else, are merely a tool that can be used correctly or badly. People shouldnt just say something is Horrible and Nasty because they dont understand it.

The way flip was talking sound very much like hes parroting Cesar Milan to me..

"Being calm and adsertive" <--- (assertive)

"calm submissive behavour" (behaviour)

"I did see training with shock collars to train dogs to keep away from snakes, and majority of the time the dog only had to be shocked once and the dog on its next test stayed well clear of the snake." A episode of the Dog Whisperer

"you dont punish dogs, you should discipline them" also what cesar milan says.

Do you know why a vet has to determine the suitability? What things would the vet be looking for in suitability or what would fail the dog for suitability

Somewhat

I would be very worried about a vet saying what training tool should be used on any dog. My vet personally, I would trust to tell me the correct information. However I've heard from various friends and experienced myself some very weird opinions from vet on training or dog behaviour. Example. The dog was humping other dogs constantly, and her leg aswell. She asked her vet what could be done. His response "He humping fot sex and because its spring. So there is no way you could ever stop it"

A wonderful vet doesnt make a good trainer,

a great trainer doesnt make a good Behaviourist.

and a great behaviourist doesn't make any of them above.

[Akitaowner]

hmmm u gotta love these threads - why come onto an obedience and training forum (where its very obvious people use these tools as there are numerous threads about them) and make sweeping statements about how you hate them and they are cruel....

Maybe i should head to offtopic and start a thread of how much i hate black people and that they should be banned from public transport so we have more room...????!!!! i might feel that way (which i dont) but i wouldnt voice the way i feel in such a way that is so, openly trolling and looking for a reaction...

good on ya Erny for trying to educate but i think youve been baited!

[Erny]

good on ya Erny for trying to educate but i think youve been baited!

..... I never thought this, although I did think that there was some agenda behind the thread in the first place. However, "baited" or not ..... it's a thread that many people who are genuine in their thirst for knowledge might read and might have otherwise been easily influenced by video footage such has been represented in the first post. Video footage that really does not have a basis in "training" at all. So IMO what's been written has definitely not been a waste of time, even if the OP had formed a conclusion before proper consideration. In fact, I think the OP should be thanked - for bringing attention to uninformative and misleading material that is out there and that without this opportunity may well have gone undiscussed and undisputed.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Erny

[Kayne's Mum]

Interesting thread and always good to see what trainers have to say. Never too old to learn something new.

Not agreeing with anyone in particular here but I have used an e-collar on our malamute.

It is voice activated and has about 10 settings. We put Kierahs on 2 because on 1, you felt nothing and she has an extremely think coat around her neck.

It it were just us with Kierah howling at ambulances during the night, no neighbours, then, no, we would never have tried the collar.

However, with respect to those against the collar, I feel that it has worked well for us.

She only wears it when we go to bed until early next morning.

We set it the first few nights. After only 1 night with an amulence in the distance, she ceased howling. Most nights, the collar is on but not set.LOL. But she doesn't know that. Number 2 setting is a smal "zap", just mild enough to remind her why she is being zapped.

During the day she NEVER has the collar on. We have neighbours to consider. I certainly would not be impressed to be woken nightly to the sound of a butch howl.

If you are familiar with malamutes, you'll understand the noise I'm speaking of. Boy, can they HOWL.

When the collar is removed, she gets lots of praise, kisses and cuddles for being such a good girl and we rub her neck. She loves it.

[Akitaowner]

good on ya Erny for trying to educate but i think youve been baited!

..... I never thought this, although I did think that there was some agenda behind the thread in the first place. However, "baited" or not ..... it's a thread that many people who are genuine in their thirst for knowledge might read and might have otherwise been easily influenced by video footage such has been represented in the first post. Video footage that really does not have a basis in "training" at all. So IMO what's been written has definitely not been a waste of time, even if the OP had formed a conclusion before proper consideration. In fact, I think the OP should be thanked - for bringing attention to uninformative and misleading material that is out there and that without this opportunity may well have gone undiscussed and undisputed.

dont get me wrong i think you should be applauded for your persistence! anyone that has any idea of how training aids work understands that they can all be misused in the wrong hands, no OH did this kind of thing when i first got a no bark, 'just to see' that doesnt mean he would ever do it to a dog...

i suspect this video was the same prank... methods progress (e collar training is very different to what it used to be) and those who dont keep up to date with the technology available are missing out, even if you dont use all the techniques (noone ever does) i feels its important to know all the different methods so i can have a choice as to what best suits the situation...

and if anyone thinks a clicker will do the same as an e collar they are very mistaken...

[MonElite]

We havent had one of those thread for quite a while, about time one surfaced ;-)

I always put this challenge up in those thread.

have a look at this video and tell me the moment the dogs is being "shocked" with the collar.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=XHE5pU47jgg&NR=1

[Luke GSP]

We havent had one of those thread for quite a while, about time one surfaced ;-)

I always put this challenge up in those thread.

have a look at this video and tell me the moment the dogs is being "shocked" with the collar.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=XHE5pU47jgg&NR=1

I found this video hard to watch, the dog is obviously suffering terribly at the hands of it's evil owner looking for a short cut to an obedient dog. If only the owner was prepared to put the time in to train the dog with a clicker it wouldn't have to endure such pain. :rolleyes:

Incredible the difference when you see something applied by an inteligent and capable owner, isn't it.

[Ms James]

I always pause my youtube videos before I play them, then I don't have to stop-start waiting for the buffering to complete...when I paused, I have to say it stopped on the most impressive set of testicles I've seen in a long time

Monelite, Rex looks like he's having the time of his life in that video! I could only identify one moment when I thought that maybe he might have been corrected (when you asked him to stop & he took a few more steps?), but I couldn't be too sure. Well done! :rolleyes:

[MonElite]

maybe it will be easier on this video

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=m9r5DdASGR0

Ms James - lets see what will you pause the video on this time :rolleyes:

Its hard to watch them, isnt it, the poor oppressed dog shocked by the collar into submission, can you see he is cowering all the time, the tail is down, ears back, I nearly cry each time I watch those clips!

BTW its been about 3 maybe even 4 years ago when I took those videos, Rexy isnt capable of having that much fun any more

[gemibabe]

Gemibabe, interesting that you waited till nearly 2 in the morning to post.

I'm in Perth thanks... and who gives what time I jumped on the laptop... get a life!

Turn off the computer for a bit and look what happens :rolleyes:

Seems I wasn't suppose to do that...

Do you know why a vet has to determine the suitability? What things would the vet be looking for in suitability or what would fail the dog for suitability Erny?

Apart from the "health" aspect, and as I understand it, the reason a Vet was appointed to determine suitability was because the Govt were at a loss to easily and without complications, identify any one other group that was 'qualified' (using formal terms) in the eyes of the Government. It is acknowledged within the documents from Government that the downside of this was that Vets across the board do not necessarily have the experience in dog behaviour and training nor a good understanding of the tool in question. But that's what they went with anyway .....

AND....can the typical DOL mentality of ganging up on people cease please. Some of you really need to step out of this unless you have something constructive to add.

No-one's ganging up or bullying you Gemibabe. You've simply made a statement, an assertion if you will. And now you're recognising how many people disagree with you and are pointing out where and how your statement/assertion is flawed.

I wasn't actually referring to me being bullied, more so for Flip... I have thicker skin than this...

I have actually been out at the wineries all day and have returned with a headache so will not reply to your questions erny until later... like others I have respect for you, but little for some others on here.