Shock Collars

[Erny]

A lot of people think that the prong collar is a horrible thing to use on a dog, but it's worked wonders on my dog and i'm so glad i have it ...

I hope it continues so that you can.

I'm not confident that will be the case though. Unless people voice it out now.

Sorry to go Gemibabe. But what is occuring in relation attempted control over what ALL people will use (or not) on ALL dogs is IMO wrong and not congenial to dog-welfare, so I can't help myself but voice up about it.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

Gemibabe, I most certainly respect your feelings, but please look at it this way.....

What do you think a young lamb that has just been born and is being torn apart by a rogue dog feeling??

Sorry, I refer to stock chasing and killing as this is a very serious problem for farmers. Most of the time it is the neighbours dog that causes the problem. Some of these dogs are shot on the spot by farmers....what then, are the dog's owners feeling?

We need to set aside our emotions when making decisions as to whether a dog's actions and the consequences of those actions will harm others both directly or indirectly. In this case, I would have absolutely no hesitation in administering a very well timed and aversive stim to the dog. Saves the sheep, saves the dog, saves a lot of heartache!

[Ms James]

BUT I FEEL this type of training tool should never be allowed on any animal. that is my opinion. sorry some people can't accept that. Not sure why you want to argue the issue with me.

Then don't use it. Simple isn't it?

Personally, I feel that using a clicker is a lazy form of training, but you never see me bitching about it in clicker threads. Different forms of training work on different dogs, and I find it insulting when people bag out a training tool an owner uses when the owner has obviously taken the time, effort, and personality of the dog into account to achieve the best result for their dog.

[Rusky]

The thing that always gets me is that those who disapprove of e-collars usually have no issue with desexing. Both make life easier

easier for whom? I don't think desexing and shock collars are comparable. I admire the people in the second video, I didn't watch either for long but they were trying to find a level they felt comfortable with. I do think though a lead might be a better idea, or a fence?

[kyliegirl]

You can momentarily distract the dog with a clicker btw...

A clicker should never be used as a distraction, it is only a training tool to act as a reinforcer. clicking a dog to distract it only gives it a reinforcer of what it was just doing and will do it again.

I am not sure how a clicker would go with a dog chasing a cow etc but from what I have read positive reinforcement isnt used to avoid a situation you are just altering a situation. eg- dog likes to dig, teach it to wipe its paws on a mat with the digging action. Dog plays with your clothes, teach it to chuck them in a basket. Its just giving the dog a more desirable alternative to use its abilities. Technically if a dog runs off to chase a cow, then obviously the dog didn't find you as reinforcing as the enjoyment of chasing a cow.. Your supposed to train the dog in all situations with the clicker, which is the reason why it works is because all your doing is continuously rewarding the dog and reinforcing behaviours and keeping the dogs focus on YOU.

as for prongs and shock collars, both are considered nasty (especially how the prong looks) but even though I wont use either, it doesnt mean that they arent useful in the right hands. The same thing as choke collars and harnesses, all of these can be used the wrong way, but if you know how to use them are actually extremely harmless to the dog.

Edited August 2, 2008 by kyliegirl

[Ms James]

I do think though a lead might be a better idea, or a fence?

Can you explain the above statement? I don't understand what you mean

E collars are usually used for remote training. And invisible fencing are generally used on larger properties.

[Just Midol]

The thing that always gets me is that those who disapprove of e-collars usually have no issue with desexing. Both make life easier

easier for whom? I don't think desexing and shock collars are comparable. I admire the people in the second video, I didn't watch either for long but they were trying to find a level they felt comfortable with. I do think though a lead might be a better idea, or a fence?

Easier to control.

Are you telling me that desexing doesn't hurt? The dog feels no pain? Desexing permanently changes a dog, e-collars don't even hurt.

BTW, how do you know they don't have a fence? What if they have 2000 acres and like to take their dog with them and want to have a realiable recall from 1-2km away?

You can't say a fence or a leash is a better idea when you have no idea of their circumstances.

[Erny]

... the people in the second video ... they were trying to find a level they felt comfortable with.

The thing that is wrong with this is that it should be about finding the right level for the dog.

I'm all for people experiencing the effect of ANY and ALL devises before they use it on a dog. I've done so myself. For the e-collar I know that the correct level for the method I prefer is at the point where I first notice the stimulation sufficiently to find it an annoyance.

What the people in both video clips have done is taken the stim level beyond that level - and even beyond the level where they might have otherwise ceased a behaviour and not repeated it, if that had been the point of the exercise.

If you want to conduct a similar exercise that these people did for the purpose of the video clip, you'd only need to adapt a head-collar to fit their heads and watch whilst they increased the intensity of the leash pulls way beyond what one would normally should do in the case of 'real life' use.

I do think though a lead might be a better idea, or a fence?

Not sure what you mean by this, Rusky?

Edited August 2, 2008 by Erny

[Nekhbet]

BUT I FEEL this type of training tool should never be allowed on any animal. that is my opinion. sorry some people can't accept that. Not sure why you want to argue the issue with me.

You come onto a public forum, make an uneducated statement about a valuable training tool because of an adolescent idiot on the internet.

So we should just nod in agreement.

A dog that has killed stock before and is running after a lamb ... how would you use a clicker to overide what is a self rewarding behaviour. They can have MASSIVE prey drive satisfaction or you could click - treat. Yeah ... no

I think you need to realise there are some hard, difficult and driven dogs in the world. There are also extremely dangerous dogs out there who require correct methods for behaviour modification. Rusky some dogs are compulsive escape artists, or are simply driven dogs that have insane reactions to prey animals. Heck some people use E-collars for reliable recalls, the dog doesnt run around screaming it simply has an annoyance when not acknowledging the owner or moving further from them (a highly condensed version of the overall training)

The sole purpose of an E-collar is NOT to simply zap the living daylights out of a dog. If you notice the collar he wore the correction was actually raised in increments as the dog kept barking. The dog is warned ... warned ... warned ... OK NO BARKING at the correct level. To put the collar straight on level 6 on a mild barker is not right. That collar is designed to work in a specific way, I own one. One level 2 and the rottie now has given up barking - the batteries dont even work in it anymore! But he wont nusience bark.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Nekhbet

[denis_c]

I am always alarmed with the emotions that flow on these topics and the lack of leadership based on factual information given by the pros.

I am an avowed "positive" trainer, but am no absolutist. I do see the need for the use of Aversives occasionally, or to paraphrase Lindsay when all posiitve alternatives are exhausted. E collars are clearly another Aversive. What alarms me is when In my opinion , Aversives seem to me to be used as a first up item or suggestion on this forum. I reckon Lindsay's chapter" Aversive Control of Behavior" in his Handbook of Applied Dog Behaviour and Training should be compulsory reading Before discussions are started.

I think that the concept of working levels needs further work. One Anedocte is that I have a chocolate Labrador, and I can tell you that he walked away from a scrap with another dog with no visible signs of pain, but spent several days in the Vet with quite major injuries. While one anedocte doesn't make a scientific or sound approach, I have yet to see a convincing case that working levels are that sound . Perception and impact of pain is a highly difficult subject and is a major reason why aversives should be used as a last resort..What working levels do do is make the novice feel more comfortable with using an adversive. "Look Ma the dog isn't really hurting!".

I also think that the over use and over emphasis on the use of adversives is doing the dog world a lot of harm. One good way of making dogs look like the aggressive badly behaved menaces the media would like them to be, is to continue to over empasise the use of adversives.

I am waiting for the petition that couples the legality of some tools with a ban on groups who dare even in this day and age ban the use of tools such as toys and food on publically owned grounds. You see, when lay people see us train with toys and food, a lot of barriers get broken down. That will get my signature.

Denis Cody

[Jamaica]

Shock collars are for use for people whom dont have time to train there dog properly and positive reinforce their dogs good behavour. Or people who dont know much about dog behavour and want to "shock it" in to submission. kind of like a quick fix option.

Being calm and adsertive towards your dog brings calm submissive behavour from them but to achieve this means that time and patience has to be given to your dog.

Im not against shock collars or for them either but reminding owners that they chose to have their dogs and therefore in the best interest of there dogs they deserve the time to be trained in a non quick fix manor.

I own the biggest fastest asshole of a dog and when he ran off i used to think, wouldnt it be good to shock him because he frustrated me so much when he defied me but i knew how to fix him but it wouldnt be easy, should i shock him or should i do the hard yards? i did the hard yards without shock and he is calm happy dog. so i guess the option is: shock em because im lazy or dont know what to do or do i put time into my dog and slowly iron out the bad behavour.

Its a choice an owner can only make for their own dog.

I did see training with shock collars to train dogs to keep away from snakes, and majority of the time the dog only had to be shocked once and the dog on its next test stayed well clear of the snake.

[Kelpie-i]

I am waiting for the petition that couples the legality of some tools with a ban on groups who dare even in this day and age ban the use of tools such as toys and food on publically owned grounds. You see, when lay people see us train with toys and food, a lot of barriers get broken down. That will get my signature.

It must be just me just being tired from a busy day at dog training, but I don't think I understand what you mean here Denis_C. Can you or someone please clarify so that my fizzled mind can understand.

[Kavik]

flip

ecollars are not always used to 'shock the dog into submission'. In your example of running off, while you could use positive punishment to correct the dog with an ecollar for not coming when called, you could also teach the recall with the ecollar using the working level (level dog just perceives) using negative reinforcement where the dog learns how to turn the stim off by complying with the command. You would use a lower level for this work than for correcting the dog, and is the first exercise most teach with the ecollar.

[Kelpie-i]

I did see training with shock collars to train dogs to keep away from snakes, and majority of the time the dog only had to be shocked once and the dog on its next test stayed well clear of the snake.

In this case, did it not help in keeping the dog away from what could have been a fatal situation??

[Just Midol]

Does anyone get the idea that a lot of people join DOL and WATCH for threads on e-collars and prongs to pop up? I am starting to think they are Trolls.

[Nekhbet]

Shock collars are for use for people whom dont have time to train there dog properly and positive reinforce their dogs good behavour. Or people who dont know much about dog behavour and want to "shock it" in to submission. kind of like a quick fix option.

Once again someone who has seen minimal correct use of the collars and follows the stereotypes

I own the biggest fastest asshole of a dog and when he ran off i used to think, wouldnt it be good to shock him because he frustrated me so much when he defied me but i knew how to fix him but it wouldnt be easy, should i shock him or should i do the hard yards? i did the hard yards without shock and he is calm happy dog. so i guess the option is: shock em because im lazy or dont know what to do or do i put time into my dog and slowly iron out the bad behavour.

As a trainer I tell people to do the hard yards. BUT at the same time it is just as cruel to plug away at an innefective or slow, drawn out process to try and modify behaviour.

Number one the attitude of how you saw your dog was a contributing factor - biggest fattest asshole - shocking the dog wouldnt have worked. Yes you needed to be a leader, but even using tools (which an E collar is) you still need a range of things up your sleeve in order to train your dog effectively.

So many people think that trainers that use E-collars, prongs, correction chains, dominant dog collars etc are horrible nasty people that do nothing but torture dogs. All the owners I help learn the basics of dog behaviour and that REWARDS and consistancy are just as important as a well timed correction, if not more. I have fixed a hyper drive lunger in 15 minutes, and when released after the exercise the dog actually volunteered to come up to me and sit for a pat, I rewarded the dog every time it looked at or acknowledged me and as far as it new the correction just happened when he lunged. The owners also understand they need to be consistent with ongoing maintenance and rewards to keep the owner-dog relationship strong.

No ... us horrible people take the easy road some people need to research and see some real trainers at work before making judgements. So far all the cons are based on stereotypical nonsense

[Jamaica]

flip

ecollars are not always used to 'shock the dog into submission'. In your example of running off, while you could use positive punishment to correct the dog with an ecollar for not coming when called,

Just one thing bout what you said, you dont punish dogs, you should discipline them, and correct there ways.

As i said im not against them, like i said about snakes ect there are circumstances where the dogs life is in jepordy.

[Erny]

Shock collars are for use for people whom dont have time to train there dog properly and positive reinforce their dogs good behavour. Or people who dont know much about dog behavour and want to "shock it" in to submission. kind of like a quick fix option.

And these statements are for and from people who can't be bothered to research into the good uses the e-collar does have compared with matters such as learning and restraint stress; aggression; uncontrolled prey drive; etc. etc.

Being calm and adsertive towards your dog brings calm submissive behavour from them but to achieve this means that time and patience has to be given to your dog.

No one has mentioned that being "calm and assertive" (I assume that's the word you meant to write?) isn't part of training the dog ..... yes, even ones trained with the kind use of the e-collar.

Im not against shock collars or for them either ...

Given you've declared them for use by people who "don't have time to train their dog properly", it doesn't sound like it???

... but reminding owners that they chose to have their dogs and therefore in the best interest of there dogs they deserve the time to be trained in a non quick fix manor.

A "quick fix" is a bandaid solution to training or behaviour problems. It is terminology for something that is not going to last. If you had a clue about training dogs using the e-collar, you would understand that "quick fix" it is not.

I own the biggest fastest asshole of a dog and when he ran off i used to think, wouldnt it be good to shock him because he frustrated me so much when he defied me ...

Gosh ...... I don't even think those sorts of thoughts regardless of the training equipment or methodology I might be using. And if you thought your dog was defying you, I'd suggest you take a double take at your training. Mostly it's the person to blame and not about the dog "defying".

... but i knew how to fix him but it wouldnt be easy ...

What's wrong with "easy"? Often quicker learning for the dog, so "learning stress" is kept to a minimum.

... should i shock him or should i do the hard yards? ...

I guess you could have tried "stimming" instead. Might have saved you and your dog the "hard yards" ???

shock em because im lazy or dont know what to do

Wow .... another who thinks it's about "laziness"? You need to read up a lot more on this method so you can make educated statements

continued next post

Edited August 2, 2008 by Erny

[Erny]

... or do i put time into my dog and slowly iron out the bad behavour.

Well .... the quicker the "bad behaviour" is "ironed out" the quicker the dog receives less punishments. Or ..... are you telling us you don't/didn't use punishment? Think carefully about your answer before you post back.

Its a choice an owner can only make for their own dog.

Yes - and those who understand the e-collar training make those choices on an educated level, not with the simple and so far from the truth notion that it is "lazy" training; a "quick fix" or for those who can't train properly.

Make your statements - but I wish you'd get a clue before you do. Either that, or acknowledge you don't understand (whether partly or fully) the training basis behind the good use of the e-collar and ask about it. There are numerous of us here who would be happy to entertain you with some sound, knowledgeable, factual and educational information if your mind is open to it.

I did see training with shock collars to train dogs to keep away from snakes, and majority of the time the dog only had to be shocked once and the dog on its next test stayed well clear of the snake.

This is one (very useful when it comes to the dog's life) instance for the use of the e-collar.

FYI (and education) HERE is a link about "finding the working level" on an e-collar

And this one is an e-collar trained dog Recalling off a hare chase

Doesn't seem to me that the handler is one who is lazy or who doesn't know about training. And the dog certainly seems a very fit, well and happy dog ..... with the advantage of experiencing much freedom similar to the footage shown here.

[Erny]

Just one thing bout what you said, you dont punish dogs, you should discipline them, and correct there ways.

Ummmm .... how do you think your dog perceives "discipline" ???