gemibabe Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 (edited) A guy wears a shock collar to see how humane it is... I know the characteristics are huge from dog to human skin but I feel this type of training tool should never be allowd on any animal. http://www.filecabi.net/video/dog-collar-man.html Edited August 2, 2008 by gemibabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 I feel this type of training tool should never be allowed on any animal. I didn't watch the video... (dial-up) but have seen humans demonstrate the collars before. ANY training tool can be abused....chain collars, headcollars, ...anything. It's the PERSON at the other end of the device who causes the problems "Shock" collars, as you call them are (AFAIK) most often used as a GENTLE 'poke' on the neck- to momentarily distract the dog, and turn his/her attention. Used responsibly The amount of stimulus is tailored to the individual dog, and is always used at the minimum required! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 There is another video I have seen, which shows a trainer trying to find the working level for a particular dog, it's a chocolate Labrador I think for anyone who knows which video I'm talking about. The dog didn't even respond until the working level, and when the dog did respond he sniffed the ground. Completely different to that video you have posted gemi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 (edited) The thing that always gets me is that those who disapprove of e-collars usually have no issue with desexing. Both make life easier... Edited August 2, 2008 by Lord Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 A dogs neck is very different from a humans- humans should try an e collar on their thigh to feel the e collar. Have a look for videos from Bart Bellon and see how happy his dogs are. I have never viewed e collars in the same way since attending his seminar- low level stimulus negative reinforcement with good timing and clarity saw a number of unmanageable dogs with other tools become wonder dogs in a very short period of time. He also used an e collar on many parts of his body to show the different sensations and muscle twitches. I have felt an e collar a number of times and i find it no more than mildly uncomfortable when used on the levels i use it on. One of my e collars i can't feel at all until level 16 but one of my dogs works on level 9 and the other on 15. I have used e collars on 2 of my 4 dogs and it would be impossible for anyone to tell which two dogs have had one on and which two have not. And using an electronic bark collar is better than rehoming and/ or death IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 Gemibabe, how would you respond if I said all your friends are total fools!!!!You would be highly likely to feel angry,annoyed,pi--ed off,cranky and other emotions. Why would you feel like the above after reading my statement about your friends?You would be annoyed because I made a statement about your friend's based on no real knowledge of your friends at all!!!!I made a judgement without knowing any facts or information about your friends. Now using the above example,why use the same flawed logic that I used in my example and rubbish a training tool without hands on use and hands on experience. Also just because something appears on the net,do's not automatically make it gospel.A Video can also be doctored or manipulated to appear a certain way to support some dubious agenda's that belong to some rather dubious groups. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 Also just because something appears on the net,do's not automatically make it gospel. yep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemibabe Posted August 2, 2008 Author Share Posted August 2, 2008 oh please persephone you didn't even know what I was posting about... a gentle 'poke' I think not....it was an electric shock.. Oh and Tony, I couldn't careless what you say about whomever. I don't get all involved with such emotional bullshit you obviously get off on. Your opinions are your opinions, I accept that. You can momentarily distract the dog with a clicker btw... Cosmolo, the shock collar in the video clearly had 6 levels, not 15, so the intensity could/would of been alot more than your collar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 Dogs 1km away. How does a clicker distract them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 oh please persephone you didn't even know what I was posting about... a gentle 'poke' I think not....it was an electric shock.. Gemibabe- READ what i wrote What you saw obviously was powerful---- BUT was most likely done that way(used at full strength) to achieve exactly the response you have . (my bolding) ANY training tool can be abused....chain collars, headcollars, ...anything. It's the PERSON at the other end of the device who causes the problems wink.gif"Shock" collars, as you call them are (AFAIK) most often used as a GENTLE 'poke' on the neck- to momentarily distract the dog, and turn his/her attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 (edited) Gemibabe - you are well entitled to your opinion/s, however the problem is that you use these types of media to formulate your opinion on. They are in fact not educational at all. Cosmolo, the shock collar in the video clearly had 6 levels, not 15, so the intensity could/would of been alot more than your collar... Yes you're right, Gemibabe - it most probably was, because it would not have the incremental fractions that e-collars with more numbers on their dial have. But in addition, this person certainly went way higher than would have been necessary if he had been a dog. So the footage is not a good example of 'real life' and proper use. I could maybe arrange some video footage of people using their dog's flat collar in ways that can cause damage to their dogs. Should that be enough for a person to enter a public forum and assert "I feel this type of training tool should never be allowed on any animal." I'd say "yes", because everyone is entitled to express what they "feel", as you have ..... although would you perhaps think that person might need to receive a bit of education? You can momentarily distract the dog with a clicker btw... This is a good example of the argument often used by those opposed to aversives in training. I'm not suggesting that is you, Gemibabe, but just that it carries a common theme by those who oppose certain methodologies and/or training tools. The thing is, not EVERY dog will distract in every circumstance to a clicker. Some not at all. Often this is a point either conveniently and purposefully overlooked for the sake of 'their' argument. Sometimes though it is a point made in innocent ignorance. oh please persephone you didn't even know what I was posting about... a gentle 'poke' I think not....it was an electric shock.. .... Gemibabe - did you not notice the 'Level 1' stim to which the person on the video clip only gave a small jump and very quickly recovered and readied for the next one at the next level? You can momentarily distract the dog with a clicker btw... I've known of dogs who are sensitive to the noise of the clicker and shy away from it. Should that be enough for a person to enter a public forum and assert "I feel this type of training tool should never be allowed on any animal." I'd say "yes", because everyone is entitled to express what they "feel", as you have ..... although would you perhaps think that person might need to receive a bit of education? Apart from which, even if the clicker was successful in distracting, how is the owner to use this when they are at work? Do you suggest arming all the neighbours with a clicker?? What you have watched is a reaction by someone who has taken the stim levels to beyond what he would require or was necessary, if he were a dog. Now - if we want to stretch our imaginations a little and think of that person as though he was a dog with barking issues, then think about a dog who by its behaviour has been, over time, causing nuisance to the neighbourhood. Think of the dog's owners who have received not only the angst from neighbours due to the continued annoying disturbance excessive barking can cause. Think of the owners also having received notice from their Council informing them their dog's barking has been reported and that unless it ceases to continue to be a nuisance, an order for the destruction of the dog will be issued. Think of the owners who have tried alternative methods that have failed. The stim-collar could well be the only thing that stands between the dog living, or dying. Would you still say "I feel this type of training tool should never be allowed on any animal"? Perhaps you would , but I certainly would not agree. If a dog's temperament is suitable for an e-stim collar (and this person, if he were a dog, would probably be that - he was not so fearful as to not be able to learn to understand that his 'barking' caused the collar stim ..... he knew/learnt that to control the stim he only needed to not 'bark') the dog would not persist beyond the 'effective' stim level. Unlike the person in the video clip who persisted simply for the sake of the video clip, not something that would occur if the collar was being demonstrated more realistically for its genuine purpose. As mentioned - you're entitled to your opinion, regardless of whether it is an educated one or not. Edited August 2, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 From what I know - there are 3 general types of electronic dog collars In order of intensity (low to high) remote trainers bark collars containment systems It is a bark collar shown in the video. Remote trainers are most often used in the way Cosmolo described. At working level where the dog can just perceive it. Bark collars are used to stop nuisance barking, some have set levels you can decide, some start on the lowest level and only increase if the dog continues to bark. Most often used without human interaction. I'm not so familiar with containment systems, where the dog gets pinged if it ignores the warning beep for getting too close to the perimeter fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyliegirl Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 (edited) this is probably a better demonstration of shock collar he goes through all 8 levels to know responsibly what levels to use so they know how to use it appropriately. While I would never use one, it is possible in the right hands to be used right. Edited August 2, 2008 by kyliegirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 I would like to see a clicker used to distract dogs who are chasing and killing stock!! Don't get me wrong, I loooove the clicker!! But it would be a useless as 'tits on a bull' in this situation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 I would like to see a clicker used to distract dogs who are chasing and killing stock!!Don't get me wrong, I loooove the clicker!! But it would be a useless as 'tits on a bull' in this situation! Hey! A bull might just like (and find use) to have them, KI . But I agree. A clicker is used to mark good behaviour (just as a verbal marker can be exercised). Reinforcing good behaviour is good, but doing that alone implies ignoring unwanted behaviour. There are many times when that is not either possible nor even beneficial for the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baifra Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 this is probably a better demonstration of shock collar he goes through all 8 levels to know responsibly what levels to use so they know how to use it appropriately. While I would never use one, it is possible in the right hands to be used right. Kyliegirl I love your signature!!!! Very cute and funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemibabe Posted August 2, 2008 Author Share Posted August 2, 2008 BUT I FEEL this type of training tool should never be allowed on any animal. that is my opinion. sorry some people can't accept that. Not sure why you want to argue the issue with me. I also feel that the shock collars are a lazy way to training a dog. Kyliegirl that video was just the same as the one I posted except yours mentioned they were testing it to see how the dog is going to feel... and " so he can go for walks without getting run over"... keep the lead on or get a long one... I hope those people didn't expect the dog to stop dead in its tracks at the side of the road when they clicked the button! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 (edited) BUT I FEEL this type of training tool should never be allowed on any animal. that is my opinion. sorry some people can't accept that. Not sure why you want to argue the issue with me. Because we disagree with what you "feel" and we've put up good and factual reasoning as to why your "feelings" are misplaced. Your 'feelings' on the matter might not alter, but others who read here will have the opportunity to make their minds up about what their thoughts are on stim-collars based on information, rather than someone else's "feelings". Just like yourself, others are entitled to state their opinions .... except that what has been given here in response to your expression of 'feeling' is information based on educational fact. I also feel that the shock collars are a lazy way to training a dog. Why do you think it is a "lazy way"? Because no-one ends up in a sweat about it? Does training have to be hard work for it to be acceptable and to whom - the dog, or yourself? If it is the most efficient and effective way for the dog to learn, why don't you 'feel' this not a good thing for the dog? I hope those people didn't expect the dog to stop dead in its tracks at the side of the road when they clicked the button! Just the same as anyone could hope they don't expect the dog to stop dead in its tracks at the side of the road when they click a clicker. Naturally, like anything, 'training' comes into it Gemibabe. Do you have any knowledge about using an e-collar for training? If so, would you explain it here so we can understand WHY you might harbor the 'feelings' about the e-collar as you do. Edited August 2, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~*Shell*~ Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 (edited) After taking Zero out to see a behaviourist and trainer, i have no problem with e collars as long as they're used in consultation with a trained professional. The good quality ones are expensive, but have heaps of settings on them and can be adjusted so the dog recieves the lowest stimulation that it will be distracted by. A lot of people think that the prong collar is a horrible thing to use on a dog, but it's worked wonders on my dog and i'm so glad i have it - but again, i don't think people should use it unless they're taught to do so. Any training tool (including a flat collar) can be dangerous and harmful in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it. And coming from someone who works in the media - don't believe everything you see. Media sources are doctored and edited before anyone sees them, as a means to an end. You can convince a lot of people, even if what you're saying is not the truth. Edited to fix spelling... Edited August 2, 2008 by ~*Shell*~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 2, 2008 Share Posted August 2, 2008 I CHOOSE not to use an ecollar, but I understand how they work and why, and it doesn't bother me if other people choose to use them. I am not entirely comfortable using the negative reinforcement method with my dogs. But as long as people are getting good instruction on how to set the working level and their use, I have no problem with them. There is a bit involved in their use, as with any training tool. It is not as easy as pressing a button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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