Agression?

[Monah]

Ok, I've had many probs with my female viz from the beginning, maybe because she was an only pup. She is now 2 1/2, does agility, obed and flyball for fun. Frightened of children, doesn't like to be approached by anyone prefers to do the approaching herself, not 'keen' on other dogs, but will play and enjoy dogs she knows.

So, have had a bit of behaviourist stuff which has been terrific, about 12 months ago, also do NILIF and TOT alll the time. But, she is allowed on the furniture, sleeps crated, has 2 other dogs here and 4 cats.

Recently at agility, at night, she snapped at a dog, whilst on lead, we were walking past and she knows this dog very well, usually fine. She connected and punctured the other's nose I don't know if it was shadows, fear, aggression etc. 3 trainers there too, and it was a trainers dog! No one can help me with why this happened.

I have been very nervy ever since at any doggy thing, it was such a shock. I know she has issues but nothing like this has ever happened before and the other dog is terrific and luckily has no issues resulting from this attack.

I would love to go to some of these aggression courses etc. but am not in a position to, being far from Sydney etc. Now I am worried as 2 dogs are leaving flyball, moving, and we'll have 2 more to our team. What if she eats them? How do I introduce as she is worse on lead, but I'm frightened to have her off for intro. She is fairly unpredictable, can be a bully, and also fearful. Is there anything I can do at home etc. to help with this behaviour? Where am I going wrong(big ask I know!!) My other 2 are great, I'd love to be able to trust the viz more, and my anxiety would not be helping either. Any ideas, anyone have this problem? She pretty much ignores dogs whilst walking and is pretty good, just bad if on lead and a dog is in her face, and new dogs. I would not say she is dog aggressive, but if she' gets fearful, she gets in first. Am I a crap leader? Would being very strict help or is it just something I have to learn to live with?Last time a pup was at the vets and she tried to hide under a table!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks

[Jigsaw]

It sounds like fear aggression but this is speculation as I can't see your dog in action! Can only go by your description. Some dogs are leash aggressive. Training at night may change things too, unfamiliar sounds, sights and smells may make her more reactive. She sounds like she is reacting on a very basic instinct level - fight or flight when on leash. If this is so she will have trouble learning while she is in that sort of mental state. Do you have any access to a private trainer or behaviourist who would be able to observe you and your dog, hopefully they would be able to give you some insight into helping you and your dog?

[Monah]

HI, thanks, yes it is fear, you are spot on. I think I will persevere with off lead encounters, it's only on lead(ATM!!!) that it has happened, and yes , at night. thanks.

[persephone]

Fear aggression is a hard one- as we can only walk our dogs on leash

When their "flight" response is curtailed by a leash- the "fight" one is the only option

As your girl has been fearful since puppyhood- it may be genetic, and very difficult to overcome.

I would suggest a behaviourist again- one who understands fear/nervous aggression.

Poor dog

[WalandLibby]

Leslie McDevvitt's book Control Unleashed has some great ideas for reactive dogs - especially the 'Look at that!' exercise where you teach the dog to look at the things that concern it (from a distance so that it stays calm and happy) for rewards - it's a pretty smart way to do counter-conditioning imo. This is a good way to intro a dog to another - let them look at each other from a distance and use the feedback from the dog with the issues (judging from their body language, calmness and ability to respond to your cues) to judge what is ok, and when they've had enough. It's better to go slowly and carefully.

Generally it is better to avoid correcting for inappropriate behaviour towards other dogs (although I've been there with my own dogs and know how counter-intuitive that seems). Correcting tends to make the behaviour worse, as it confirms their suspicion that other dogs aren't safe to be around (so I don't think being strict with her would be helpful, I think it might make things worse.)

I think it was Sue Sternberg who said that the absence of friendliness (as you describe to other dogs when she's on lead) is a red flag - that is not a neutral behaviour and seems consistent with the issues she's having.

[Monah]

Thanks for the advice. Do you know the publishers of that book? I can order it but may need the publishers name I just read smokeysues problem and can understand how she feels as monah has drawn blood and with 3 of us watching, 2 trainers. We just cannot see why? Last night I got up the courage to see how she went with a gsd she knows well, all fine, then the gsd went ballistic??? Wondering if Monah gave off some sort of signal, we were all watching very closely. Another setback, she was frightened but I jollied her along until her tail wagged. I just feel like not going anywhere other dogs are but know that will only hide the problem not fix it. We are having some social functions at the club and I just don't want to go at all, now I'm freaking out about everything and making her worse.

She;s fine from a distance, fine closer, and appears fine right up close, then just has what the footy players :p now call a 'brain snap'!

[lovemesideways]

Well in my opinion, there is no "sudden" anything with dogs. Theres always reasoning behind why they do what they do. The problem is they talk in a way that most people dont understand. Body movements, tilt of the ears, look in the eyes. So when your thinking that shes fine, someone who understands their "language" better would say, well actually shes being very dominant or she being very fearful you just cant see it. Like the GSD who "all of a sudden" went ballistic. Could be that hes a bit dominant, and maybe your girl tried to say, "hey, im the boss now" so he was telling her, no freakin way!

Also "genetics" cant make a dog aggressive, thats complete crap. Depending on their parents they can be more submissive or dominant, more inclined to be around people, or more one person only dogs. But not fearful or aggressive.

Thats like saying just because your dad was a big mean bully who beat people up for fun, means that your going to be one.

I would say, call a behaviourist to help you out. Its pretty hard to asertain why shes doing what shes doing from what you've said.

Maybe some books and dvds on dog behaviour would help you out too, so you can better understand what shes saying (stanley corin calls it "doggish" the doggy language, hehe) There are 2 shows I know of that give you training help to, The Dog Listener. Wth Jan Fennel. She's very hands off, more gentle, so the dog learn for himself (or herself!) Or the Dog Whisperer, with cesar milan, Hes very tough, addressing the situation directly head on.

[Monah]

Thanks Jen, yes I have all the Fennell and Milan stuff. I think fear/nervousness can be genetic, and this in turn translates as 'aggression'. I do realise dogs have a secret language as I have owned and shown many breeds of over 30 years which is why I find this very confronting and hard to get a handle on. It's the first time I've come across behaviour that 'appears' to have no 'beginning' and 2 years ago I would have agreed with you about no sudden thing with dogs, my girl is very reactive, and believe me, sudden. My girl was being slightly submissive to the gsd (female), playbowing etc. so I can only surmise the gsd decided to prove she's the boss. Who knows? All I know is that from many of the posts on here a lot of us are facing similar problems, and I'll be reading all the posts with great interest. That's the great thing about DOL, so many people and dogs that usually someone else has already found a 'solution' to one of our problems.

Fingers crossed.

I was told to put a choker on her and give it a swift tug when she looks iffy, but if she's frightened, I don't think that will help.

[Cosmolo]

While it absolutely depends on the dog in question, i don't believe in the sometimes blanket rule that you can never apply a correction of some kind to a dog if they are fearful. There are also times when although the behaviour may have started through fear, the dog is no longer fearful and the behaviour has different origins to what it did when the problem was first identified.

You may also choose to use your obedience at times when the dog starts to look 'iffy' and correct for non responses to known commands.

What option is best though is impossible to say without seeing whats going on What about contacting the behaviourist you have used previously and ask the question?

[smokeysue]

Thanks for the advice. Do you know the publishers of that book? I can order it but may need the publishers name I just read smokeysues problem and can understand how she feels as monah has drawn blood and with 3 of us watching, 2 trainers. We just cannot see why? Last night I got up the courage to see how she went with a gsd she knows well, all fine, then the gsd went ballistic??? Wondering if Monah gave off some sort of signal, we were all watching very closely. Another setback, she was frightened but I jollied her along until her tail wagged. I just feel like not going anywhere other dogs are but know that will only hide the problem not fix it. We are having some social functions at the club and I just don't want to go at all, now I'm freaking out about everything and making her worse. :p

She;s fine from a distance, fine closer, and appears fine right up close, then just has what the footy players ;) now call a 'brain snap'!

Hi Monah, its such a worry isn't it. A brain snap is very much like it. I will not freak out tho, if i can't resolve it, i will not take him anywhere, he will be happy just to stay at home with us. But love training and socialising. But will be in control, with the help of a Halti from now on. Good luck, and i wish you success. Sue

[Jigsaw]

"Get Connected with your Dog" by Brenda Aloff is a brilliant book too. About communication with your dog. http://brendaaloff.com/booksdvds.asp

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Monah

You've had some interesting replies here to your problem.

This most certainly sounds like fear aggression and persephone is correct when he/she says that the lead restricts the dog's means of escape, therefore escalating the 'fight' response. I can tell you that any form of correction using the lead will definitely make the problem worse.

Admittedly, a leash correction can work, but only if the reason for the reaction is 'learned' through training and or self reinforcement with no element of fear involved.

Jen Martin: Also "genetics" cant make a dog aggressive, thats complete crap. Depending on their parents they can be more submissive or dominant, more inclined to be around people, or more one person only dogs. But not fearful or aggressive.

Jen Martin, I disagree with your statement. Fear tendencies can be genetic and passed down to pups. Think about who you are most like....your mum or your dad? A dog with weak nerves and tendency for fear does not know how to deal with this, therefore will resort to protecting himself the only way he has been genetically programmed to. Behaviour is calculated as such: 70% genetic, 20% Environment, 10% training/learned. A dog with genetically fearful tendencies, will usually start to show the early signs of aggression at around 5 or so months of age...some younger, despite the owner's best efforts to socialise the dog as a young pup. This, unfortunately intensifies as the owners increase efforts to 'socialise' the dog. However the more the dog 'practices' the aggressive behaviour, the more it reinforces to the dog that this is what he must do.

You can physically beat a 'dominant' dog to the point of submission (relax everyone...merely an example) and you can neutralise the dog to people and dogs so that he only sees high value in what he has been socialised to. Therefore, submission and/or dominance can be modified and are not entirely genetic. Dominance is situational specific, not a personality.

Monah, as recommended, get onto a good behavioural trainer who is an expert in aggression to come and see you and your dog. You may not be able to 'cure' the problem but a good trainer will be able to teach you techniques on desensitising to leash tugs and teach alternative behaviours to your dog.

[gillbear]

Smokeysue may I ask where you adopted Thor from?

He sounds very familiar to a dog I helped out about 6 months ago. Young male boy named Thor with double rear dew claws.

I bumped into his owners when I was walking my dogs and ended up getting my sister to mind Thor for almost a month at her house.

He was not small dog safe and he is not a dog I would take as a rescue. Poor temperament plus idiot owner = time bomb in this dog. I hope it isnt him.

He was a little lame in one of his front legs. This was Central Coast nsw but his owner moved around.

[Monah]

Kelpie, I thoroughly agree with you and Cos!! Thanks. My behaviourist is OS for a while but I will get onto her when she returns. I also just wanted some other perspectives too, I also think the correction would not be a good idea, I think many trainers here (where I am) are bit behind in certain things, but would never say so. I just either take things on board, or don't. I've now started to take the dog to the beach off lead which we have not done for a while for many reasons. She needs to improve in confidence. It is very tempting for me to keep her at home where we are all comfortable and she's terrific, but I feel we've come a very long way already and it would be a diservice to her for her confidence to plummet. But then, I worry about attacks etc too, no happy medium. I will take things slowly, carefully and consistently and see how we go. She did show very sure signs of this from 13 weeks of age (when we got her), but I was pretty niave and thought, this is trainable Good job she's so bloody easy to train and lovable :p I also agree with kelpies genetic rule, 70% genes. but having seen health genetics crop up from 'way back' in some dogs, I'm guessing it could be the same for nerves etc. as her parents appeared fine, but then I did not see them in a 'situation' as mine seems fantastic UNLESS faced with a strange, bouncy dog!! Gives me another topic on 'when looking at sires and dams', as it never occurred to me before that in one or two situations, the parents may be out of control, but new owners do not see that during a visit. Hmm, never ever thought of that before

I guess I'm just slow!!

Thanks guys for all the help

Gillbear, How awful!!

[Kelpie-i]

Monah: She did show very sure signs of this from 13 weeks of age (when we got her),

Monah, from the above statement, it could be that your pup was not socialised properly and/or suffered a bad experience with other dogs before you got her, therefore it may not be genetic.

Either way, you treat it with the same training and philosophy.

[Monah]

Monah: She did show very sure signs of this from 13 weeks of age (when we got her),

Monah, from the above statement, it could be that your pup was not socialised properly and/or suffered a bad experience with other dogs before you got her, therefore it may not be genetic.

Either way, you treat it with the same training and philosophy.

Spot on again kelpie. I just don't llike to say too much in 'public'. Thanks for telling me to treat it exactly the same way as I wasn't sure

[WalandLibby]

Sorry for not replying sooner Monah - I've been offline for a week. If you still need, it, I'm pretty sure (it's not in front of me at this second, so I hope I'm right) that Control Unleashed is published by Dogwise, but you can certainly buy it from them, and I think from Amazon also.

[Monah]

Thanks, Ill definately get the book

[4 Paws]

a few places in Aust sell it as well http://www.agilityclick.com/prod158.htm

[WalandLibby]

Oops - it's actually published by Clean Run, and was obviously having a massive mental blip (in a rush) when I answered this morning - I got my copy from AgilityClick.

For me this book was one of those 'lightbulb' books - I think McDevvitt is very good at taking theory and making it easy to use. I hope you'll like it too, Monah.