Just Midol Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I'm watching Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive dogs right now (leerburg) and he said that the lifting of the front feet is a submissive behaviour. I've never heard this anywhere, on DOL or in my basic research. Is he correct? I know it isn't ALWAYS a submissive behaviour... I have to add this disclaimer every time I post now... Is this GENERALLY a submissive behaviour? Also, does anyone have any suggestions for books on dog to dog communication. I'd prefer a thorough book. Something full of information and not much "filler". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 (edited) Lord Midol, assuming this is not a taught behaviour ie. as a trick etc, then I would concur that pawing or lifting of any of the front legs, seen mainly in some young pups, is known as active submissive display. However, this must be teamed with other signals to make clusters that are interpreted as submissive posturing on the whole, such as lip licking, ears back, sitting or rolling over on their back. Of course, if we are talking lifting the paw onto the back of another dog, then this is not submission. A book I recommend is "Canine Body Language...a photographic guide" by Brenda Aloff which is sensational and full of illustrations and full of information on the subject. Brenda is coming out in February 09 for a 3 day seminar and an entire day will be spent talking about dog's body language and their clusters. Edited coz I carnt spel!! Edited July 29, 2008 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted July 29, 2008 Author Share Posted July 29, 2008 (edited) Thanks Kelpie, from memory the NDTF body language bit didn't touch on this but it makes perfect sense. Do you know where she is doing the seminar? I assume it is in Melbourne? I might be able to go down for it but I'd have just had 2 weeks off work for the NDTF course so I'll be pushing it. Will look up the book. Edited July 29, 2008 by Lord Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Yes the NDTF course, whilst very comprehensive, will only just touch on the subject and teach you the main signals seen in most displays. There is so much involved in this subject that it would take you years to learn it fully. I'm still learning too! If you cannot get to Melbourne's 3 day seminar, then there is a 2 day'er in Sydney. If you're interested, PM me your email address and I will pass onto the person looking after the Sydney seminar. Enjoy the book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Paws Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 (edited) One of my gsd's does the same thing and I had seen that Leerburg's dvd mention that ps-take it that was your letter on the Leerburg newsletter this morning Edited July 29, 2008 by 4 Paws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted July 29, 2008 Author Share Posted July 29, 2008 (edited) Dunno, what was the letter? I emailed him the other day asking him what he does with pet vs working dogs (as everyone was telling me differently.) I think that's all I've asked him. ETA: Yep, that was me. But I got more than those in the end Edited July 29, 2008 by Lord Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Paws Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Dunno, what was the letter? I emailed him the other day asking him what he does with pet vs working dogs (as everyone was telling me differently.) I think that's all I've asked him. ETA: Yep, that was me. But I got more than those in the end Hey,nice shopping spree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbly Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 If you cannot get to Melbourne's 3 day seminar, then there is a 2 day'er in Sydney. If you're interested, PM me your email address and I will pass onto the person looking after the Sydney seminar.Enjoy the book! She doesn't happen to be coming to Perth too??? I love that book and would love to attend her seminar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Paws Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 If you cannot get to Melbourne's 3 day seminar, then there is a 2 day'er in Sydney. If you're interested, PM me your email address and I will pass onto the person looking after the Sydney seminar.Enjoy the book! She doesn't happen to be coming to Perth too??? I love that book and would love to attend her seminar. No,but here's the thread http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=135532 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted July 29, 2008 Author Share Posted July 29, 2008 Dunno, what was the letter? I emailed him the other day asking him what he does with pet vs working dogs (as everyone was telling me differently.) I think that's all I've asked him. ETA: Yep, that was me. But I got more than those in the end Hey,nice shopping spree Yeah, it wasn't cheap either! Got a few tugs and stuff as well, they didn't seem to add much to the postage (which is already super high) so took advantage of the good dollar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) yes my Mali does it quite well ... we call it her Nervous Paw hehehehe she was very undersocialised before 10 weeks and hence sometimes has trouble coping with some situations. She will sit there with a front paw lifted and tremble, sometimes ears back as well, then jump onto her hinds and grip me around the waist like "mum please we have to go NOW' pull out a prey toy and POOF gone :p eta : Midol there is also www.fordogtrainers.com - if you need a strong muzzle I already have two agitation muzles from him at home and his sleeves are very good, not for young or small dogs though due to size. Just made an order today in fact Edited July 31, 2008 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) Lord Midol, assuming this is not a taught behaviour ie. as a trick etc, then I would concur that pawing or lifting of any of the front legs, seen mainly in some young pups, is known as active submissive display. However, this must be teamed with other signals to make clusters that are interpreted as submissive posturing on the whole, such as lip licking, ears back, sitting or rolling over on their back.Of course, if we are talking lifting the paw onto the back of another dog, then this is not submission. Completely agree with Kelpie-i. I have also seen this 'gesturing' occur in adult dogs too (my own avatar girl used to do it on occasion) in circumstances where it was a sign of much uncertainty and/or fear. I would suggest the behaviour is linked with "submissive display" and as Kelpie-i has mentioned, the 'whole story' is absorbed by the registering of the rest of the dog's body posturing and the circumstances the dog is in at the time. Edited August 1, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Dante does it a bit and from what I can tell he does it when he's uncertain. i.e. There are certain humans he just adores one of those is his obedience instructor and when we turn up at training he gets very excited to see her, when I correct him for his over the top behaviour he will lift his leg and chatter his teeth. When he sees a dog in the park miles away he thinks is my other dog (she gets walked seperately by my OH) he stands very taunt and lifts a leg....almost like pointing. We he's being trained something new and he doesn't understand he'll lift his leg and chatter his teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I have a girl that will wave her leg at me when she has given some indication that she is unsure or worried and I persist in encouraging her. It looks so pathetic and with some people would work really well. Her first months were not good as she was locked up with other siblings for about 8 months. (BYB -long story). Even thou she was really feral when I got her the dog ranger who told me about her thought she was pretty game and would be OK. And she has turned out fine but at times like going to a new area/park with lots of bigger dogs or maybe in a agility run late in a comp she will stop dead. When I encourage her she waves that front leg around. So it is not just when she is unsure, it is when I am asking more of her. Depends on the circumstances what happens next. My boy will at times throw his front leg over another dogs shoulders that he meets. The two actions are so different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 ERNY! Empty your inbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 Definitely need to take in the rest of the body language but the more actions/"tells" that I can interpret the more confident in my evaluation of the behaviour I can be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I dont think that this lifted leg shows submission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 ERNY! Empty your inbox. Whoops! Sorry. Making space now . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I dont think that this lifted leg shows submission Yeah, personally I think it would be more correct to refer to lifting a leg or paw as a distance reducing signal or something similar in some cases rather than a 'sign of submission.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) Sometimes (and always dependent on the circumstances and body language) the leg lift seems to be "huh? what's that?", sort of like they're distracted mid thought while they're doing something. Or am I anthropomorphising?? Edited August 1, 2008 by Jigsaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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